GS Soundtracks

[Alistair]

Just musing this morning about GS Soundtracks (SC-55 GS, that is). Sitting listening to "Trial By Fire"'s GS score at the moment.

GS handles ethnic and jazz sounds really well.. which is why I've been converting my "Dagger of Amon Ra" MT-32 score for Sound Canvas GS. The music is well.. jazzy or ethnic (occasionally moody).

Like "Trial By Fire", "Dagger of Amon Ra"'s score is a Chris Braymen effort. Both have a lot of ethnic sounds. In fact, they seem to virtually use the same instruments.. save one or two new instruments and sound effects. So it's a perfect conversion. A lot of MT-32 default patches, and some 'close to', like 'Oboe MS' and 'FrHorn1MS2'. Another game like QFG2 which has a lot of sound effects which convert nicely.. 'ExplosionMS', 'DoorSlamMS', 'ArmorMS', 'CreakyDLL1'.. all go straight to SC-55 GS tones. Eeeexcellent

I just love Jazz pieces with the SC's MT tones.. LSL3 is a great example. LB2 has such a nice 'GS feel'. Hopefully you folks agree with me! Any thoughts on GS pieces? Tom's done some wondrous GS works. This Trial By Fire GS conversion is excellent, for example.

- Alistair

[HondaSiR]

Laura Bow 2 already has GM support from within the game, Alistair. While giving it a GS feel would undoubtedly improve its score, is it that big a difference? I still have the CD game with me, it would be nice if I could find the time to walkthrough all of it again in MT-32 and GM mode.

[Tom]

I agree with HondaSiR in terms of Laura Bow having a good SC-55 GM soundtrack.  In fact, I don't think you'd benefit at all by converting it to GS, since Brayman composed the soundtrack for SC-55 General MIDI in the first place.  Maybe you should concentrate your efforts on a soundtrack that has no GM support, like GM or GS conversions of Willy Beamish, or Heart Of China, Colonel's Bequest, Code-Name Iceman, Camelot...

Ari and I have toyed (not well) with the idea of recording the Colonel's Bequest soundtrack...and dammit...I'm going to commit myself to it now.  That will be an easy GM convert, too.

[Alistair]

Sorry boys, I disagree!

Laura Bow 2 already has GM support from within the game, Alistair. While giving it a GS feel would undoubtedly improve its score, is it that big a difference?

I agree with HondaSiR in terms of Laura Bow having a good SC-55 GM soundtrack. In fact, I don't think you'd benefit at all by converting it to GS, since Brayman composed the soundtrack for SC-55 General MIDI in the first place.

Dagger of Amon Ra was composed for the MT-32!! It's the anomaly like Police Quest 1 VGA. It was composed for the Roland MT-32, but as GM was gaining popularity, it got a GM score as well.

And I'm sorry, but LB2's SC-55 score is rubbish! It sounds so bad. Most MT-32 instruments translate poorly and a lot of the great effects don't work at all. The 'dark feel' and atmosphere of the MT score is totally lost in the GM driver version.
I don't like (in this game) the SC-55's GM Clarinet, Bassoon, Harp, French Horn, Pizzicato, Flute.. and the list goes on.
That's why GS will be a LOT better than GM. One or two SC-55 tracks are nice for GM, like Yvette and the Harlem Swinger, and the Honkytonk pieces. But Steve, Leyendecker, all the Egyptian pieces and ethnic pieces.. are simply poor. I don't know how you guys could say that..

- Alistair

[Tom]

Dagger of Amon Ra was composed for the MT-32!!

Where'd you hear that?  I'd be awfully surprised if that were true.  The balance is poor in several spots of the MT-32 score, but it's perfect for the SC-55.  (Never listened to it on the SC-8820, but I'm sure it's not as well balanced as on the SC-55 since their GM balances differ somewhat.)

If what you say is true, I must have received the version of the game designed for GM, not MT-32...because the MT-32 score is much 'stiffer' than the GM version...like the difference between muzak and music.  The subtle veloities of the strings sound much more natural on the SC-55.  It seems to me VERY fine-tuned for GM, and somewhat 'messy' for the MT-32.  

I think that's where you're drawing your conclusions -- "Most MT-32 instruments translate poorly" --trying to compare the SOUND output of the SC-55 to the MT-32.  They don't compare at all.  You can tell with many songs by the way the SOUNDS are played what they were scored for.

"a lot of the great effects don't work at all."

Such as?  Are you talking about the music not being able to set the mood, or sound effects.  I don't consider f/x part of the soundtrack unless it's designed to be part of the music.


"I don't know how you guys could say that.."

I don't know about HondaSiR, but I'm wondering how you can say the opposite.  

[HondaSiR]

I've only played through the game once with SCB-55 support and it sounds fine, very well balanced score. I didn't play it on the MT-32 yet so I can't really make a good comparison. I can probably listen to the MT-32 score here at QS, but the real comparison comes from running it through the game itself.

[Alistair]

Where'd you hear that?  I'd be awfully surprised if that were true.  The balance is poor in several spots of the MT-32 score, but it's perfect for the SC-55.  (Never listened to it on the SC-8820, but I'm sure it's not as well balanced as on the SC-55 since their GM balances differ somewhat.)

Nope.. it's definitely MT-32-designed.

If what you say is true, I must have received the version of the game designed for GM, not MT-32...because the MT-32 score is much 'stiffer' than the GM version...like the difference between muzak and music.  The subtle veloities of the strings sound much more natural on the SC-55.  It seems to me VERY fine-tuned for GM, and somewhat 'messy' for the MT-32.  

Like Brayman's QFG2 score, all the orchestral instruments actually 'balance' for the MT-32. The MT-32 strings are very good in this game. Very good indeed..
Of course the SC pianos are better, but naturally..
The MT-32 has superior just about everything.

I disagree. It's not fine-tuned for SC-55 GM.. rather a conversion. Just like PQ1VGA..
Naturally, like PQ1VGA, some instruments are nicer on the Sound Canvas. But same as PQ1VGA's score, most tracks are better on the Roland MT-32..
Almost every piece from the Leyendecker Museum onwards (that is, from Wolf outside the door onwards) is significantly better on the Roland MT-32, other than Yvette's theme, and Carrington with the piano track sounding poor on the MT-32.

MT-32's ethnic sounds really come into their own here; the Bassoon, the Sitar, the Marimba, the Oboe, using MT-32 strings as ethnic (StrSect1MS) and beautiful sounds (WarmPadStr) and even others like Pizz and Bass, Clarinet, Vibe and Xylophone, Flute, Fr Horn, Harp etc etc etc..

The SC-55 has nice Tenor Sax, Piano (1/Honkytonk), and one or two sounds worth throwing in. But very very little.. that's what made me say I can't believe you guys are saying this. The SC-55 basically has poor quality instruments for this score. Any piece from the Museum apart from the ones I mentioned will be better on the MT-32. The MT-32's patches are excellent, and a lot of default patches excellently used for this game!

Without wishing to cause offence, have you much experience with this game's music, Tom? I'm wondering. And by the way, do you have any of the files you received? I'd like to see what you meant about the files you were sent.

I think that's where you're drawing your conclusions -- "Most MT-32 instruments translate poorly" --trying to compare the SOUND output of the SC-55 to the MT-32.  They don't compare at all.  You can tell with many songs by the way the SOUNDS are played what they were scored for.

That wouldn't even make sense, because the SC-55's output quality is better. I can't argue with that.. but that's not my point. I've explained already..

"a lot of the great effects don't work at all."

Such as?  Are you talking about the music not being able to set the mood, or sound effects.  I don't consider f/x part of the soundtrack unless it's designed to be part of the music.

The music not setting the mood well is another story, which it fails to do with the SC-55 (as well, anyway). Another good point is that a lot of MT-32 effects for pieces like the Train Ride at the beginning are missing. But that's just me, it's not actually musically related. Though a lot of sound effects are used in tracks (eg Taxi Ride)..

"I don't know how you guys could say that.."

I don't know about HondaSiR, but I'm wondering how you can say the opposite.  

Hopefully I've explained why! In no way is it designed for the SC-55 over the MT-32. It's one of my least favourite Sound Canvas scores. PQ1VGA's SC-55 score was very good.. one of the nice games where there was a good score for both. QFG1VGA was another one of those. But LB2.. no way.

That said- there are one or two poorish-sounding MT-32 tracks. But then again, there's patches of this soundtrack I don't like generally. Lost the feel of the soundtrack where Brayman tried too hard. But overall, it's pretty good stuff.

Regards,
- Alistair

[Ari]

Alistair, how do you know the game was designed for the MT-32?
Has Braymen or anyone else official ever stated such a thing?

I can understand that you like the MT-32's sound better in this game, but that's simply a matter of taste.

I think the GM score is very good. I think the MT-32 score is good as well, but the GM sounds better.

[Alistair]

A few other hints that clue you in to the fact that Dagger of Amon Ra's soundtrack is MT-32 primarily composed for is the custom patches. There are custom instruments that only existed (to my knowledge) in this game.. I mean instruments, too. 'Bell Tree' is a really good example of this. If it were composed for GM, why would Braymen use this patch? Surely he'd just use 'Glock MS' (GM uses Glockenspiel for this) or a patch like that.

The use of 'BazzPizzMS' is another example of this, as is 'FrHorn1MS2', and 'WarmPadStr', 'Oboe MS'...

Some tracks are really nice with the Sound Canvas, much better than the MT-32. Some.. Yvette is a great example. But that's one of the few. "Ancient Egypt Exhibit", all O'Riley themes, the Cult tracks, the Snake theme, all of those were greatly better on the MT than on the SC.

Another good example of tracks composed for the MT-32 was the Harlem Swinger Theme #2. Tom's OGG Vorbis track of it is the SC-55 piece with the SC-55 drums played on the MT-32. Now, the MT-32 drums are actually different in the MT-32 MIDI. There's some scrapes, or slide whistles, or something, that go beyond GM's limitations. That also tells me that the score was worked for the MT-32. Certainly it tells me it wasn't a soundtrack which was composed for the Sound Canvas..

There's zillions of clues in-game (the Tribune effects are another example- General MIDI lacks about half of them, and the Taxi Ride lacks sounds too. A General MIDI composed-for game would not have this occuring. The Secret Passage with the bats and the Preservation Lab also have MT sounds that a GM composed for-score wouldn't use.), the fact that the MT-32 uses so many diverse instruments never used before and extra sounds that GM doesn't use indicates it wasn't a GM-based score. Also, so many ethnic sounds and jazz sounds are designed with the MT-32 in mind. The MT-32 flutes, bassoons, oboe, strings are all great examples. The MT-32 trombones over the SC tuba is another.. If you've worked with the game's music as much as I have, you'd know what I meant. And no, I don't have a certificate signed by Chris Brayman. And frankly, it doesn't make much difference..

The MT-32 won't sound good with every instrument. It was in decline at this point. That said, Brayman's obviously put a lot of effort into its' score. Much more than the GM soundtrack. And so I conclude it was composed for the MT-32, with GM support because GM was being supported around that time.

I'm sorry if I'm repeating myself in places.. hopefully whoever replies next will read all I've said. ('Cause Ari surely hasn't.)

Regards,
- Alistair

[HondaSiR]

My best guess would be that Chris Braymen composed the score of LB2 with the intention of giving out the best performances of both mediums (MT-32 & Sound Canvas GM). GM had the limitation of not having a real "linear arithmetic" chip, making it fall behind the MT-32's custom instrument sounds and effects capability (but still having a poor piano rendition). Chris knew this and focused more on what better instruments to use on the Sound Canvas. That gave the MT-32 the added advantage of extra sounds and effects, plus custom instruments courtesy of LA.

It would be interesting to know...what if somehow, GM also had "linear arithmetic" capabilities. It's been in my thoughts for quite some time now.

[Alistair]

I would also say that's a likely bet. But as it wasn't composed genuinely for the SC-55, that's why so many tracks sound particularly uninspiring with it. Act 3 and 4 have a lot of poor SC tracks. Ernie Leach is a good example.

Wolf Heimlich is a great example of the difference between the modules' soundtracks. Must record them to explain what I mean.

- Alistair

[Matt W]

I've been playing LB2 recently and I noticed that at least to my ears the MT-32 soundtrack sounded better than the SC-55. (I usually try both when there is the option for one or the other)

I'm not sure why I like it better....I guess the MT just fits the mood plus I like the added sound effects from the MT.

Matt

[Alistair]

Exactly how I feel. The MT-32 captures the 'mood'. KQ6, a definite SC-55 score, had the same syndrome in places- lack of emotion. But that's how I feel about the SC-55 generally. The SC-55 translates a lot of the LB2 soundtrack in the middle of the game awfully.. no emotion. Well-defined instruments musically, but they're so lame! I never liked the SC Bassoon in MT-32 support games, or the SC Clarinet, or the SC Harp, or the SC drums.. etc.

- Alistair

[HondaSiR]

Too bad the Laura Bow franchise was cancelled after just two outings. If a third part did materialize, it would definitely have a better GM score because by that time, the MT-32 had already been orphaned off (not supported) and Chris Braymen would have concentrated on the Sound Canvas. I guess Sierra thought (based on its sales) that the Laura Bow series didn't attract much attention from the male gamer.

[Alistair]

To be totally fair, Balfour pretty much (ghost) wrote Laura Bow into a hole in terms of series at least.. QFG5 style, where you get married and that's all she wrote.

Basically, Laura and Steve are married. Laura Bow II wraps it all up rather neatly..

And check GK1, Tulane Uni's notice board for a nice reference of how things end up

I never liked Laura Bow as Sound Canvas-55 games. LB1's Victrola stuff translates badly to GM, as does most LB1 stuff, though GS can be nice. And ED.. "Phono Noise" ROCKS!

Dagger of Amon Ra suffered from 'extreme mundaneness' on the SC-55 GM tones in certain tracks. Don't forget that there's a lot of music in the game, anyone! Even some SC-55 support games have some tracks which are just nicer on the MT-32. Like KQ6 with The Castle, or QFG4 with Tanya and Toby. I really like the way my GS score sounds so faithful to the MT original and yet still retains nice elements of the GM score, like the Honkytonk pieces which I've just taken from my GM recordings, rather than convert to the awful MT-32 GS Honkytonk patch.

Not that I've worked on it all week.. but I've other projects I'm working on.

- Alistair

[HondaSiR]

To be totally fair, Balfour pretty much (ghost) wrote Laura Bow into a hole in terms of series at least.. QFG5 style, where you get married and that's all she wrote.

Basically, Laura and Steve are married. Laura Bow II wraps it all up rather neatly..

Warning: The next paragraph contains information which will act as spoilers to the LB2 game. Do not read it if you have yet to solve the mystery.

Uh-uh...what you said does not really prove that LB2 was intended as the last in the series. You forgot the part in the ending sequence wherein Detective O'Riley (now behind bars) swore that he would get even with Laura somehow for nailing him. And having Laura marry Steve Dorian does not in any way hint at a series ending. Where did you get that idea? Take a look at Leisure Suit Larry 3, Larry got married and was supposed to live the happy life. But lo and behold! Three more Leisure Suit Larry adventures followed! And that's not counting today's current shmuck game, Larry Lovage.

Basically, it all boils down to profit. No matter what the story is, if the game developer feels that people will still buy a follow-up game...no matter if it is part 2...3...4...7...8...etc, it will materialize. Sadly for the Laura Bow series, the sales didn't garner enough strength for it to evolve into a third installment. That's the real reason why there is no LB3.

[Tom]

Right.  Like when J.R. was shot on Dallas, yet came back next season as we learned it was only a dream.  

[Fancia]

Thank you for the spoiler warning, by the way, HondaSiR. :b

(Yes, it must sound strange that I haven't beaten it, what with the Laura Bow avatar and all. ^.^; But large amounts of schoolwork combined with the fact that my savegames, going fairly late into it, somehow mucked up, I've not bothered starting over again to finish it yet.)

[HondaSiR]

Fancia, I'm really, really sorry.. :oops:   I didn't realize that anybody here could be presently playing the game. I just assumed that all of us (well, perhaps most of us) would have finished it by now. Darn it...well it was Alistair who started this whole thingee, let's blame him.  :smt077

[Alistair]

You forgot the part in the ending sequence wherein Detective O'Riley (now behind bars) swore that he would get even with Laura somehow for nailing him.

Nonsense. Western media often has the 'I'll get you if it's the last thing I do' catchcry, which never fills out.

Though I fully intend to have O Riley in any Laura Bow 3 plot I write some day..<wink>

QFG4 sold VERY badly! It still got QFG5 however.

Noone cared about Laura Bow. KQ had Roberta and the rest pushing it, GK had Jane, QFG had the Coles, SQ had the Guys, LSL had Al, etc.. Laura Bow had noone.

- Alistair