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Tom
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« on: January 08, 2005, 02:05:23 AM »

We're looking into updating to DSL, but I was wondering if anyone could share 'things' I should watch for in selecting my service.  Some real life experience info is always nicer to have than what the sales folks have to offer.  We don't have many choices for service here in the boonies; two, I believe.  Both cost about the same -- $30.00 for 256k (DL), and $40.00 for 512k.  The router is suplied for free.  Setup is free.  

We would need to buy 10Base T Network Cards, something I know nothing about...other than, they don't seem to be very expensive.  We also have to supply our own inside cabling.  (We're connecting at least two PC's to the router.)  Are some cards better than others?  They don't really do much, so I wouldn't think there'd be much difference in terms of simply connecting to the 'Net.

Isn't DSL speed largely dependent on how far away you live from the service company?  We're a good 15 miles away.  

Any tips are appreciated.
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Ghost_Rider
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« Reply #1 on: January 08, 2005, 02:59:02 AM »

I can't help too much, but on your last question... it depends more on where the Central Office is.  Most companies that offer DSL have them set up in the same building where the phone switches are.  For me, the Central Office is within 3 or 4 minutes walking distance.  However, the company based in this region is more like 15 miles away (or 25km away).  If my service ran out of their headquarters, it would be much slower I am sure.

The DSL providers should be able to tell you which Central Office the service for your home would be set up from, and should be able to provide you with the nearest intersection of that office; so you can figure out how far away it is.

If you want some feedback on the providers, just let me know the company names and I'll see what I can find out.  Is one of them CenturyTel?
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Zemus
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« Reply #2 on: January 08, 2005, 03:22:46 AM »

If you're going to connect two PCs to the router, you may need a switch if the router doesn't come with multiple outputs.
All the network cards should be the same. Just make sure there are Win98 drivers for the card if you're still using that.
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Marten
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« Reply #3 on: January 08, 2005, 06:16:36 AM »

Here are some thoughts on DSL.

First, how many IP addresses do you want?  IP addresses are both a blessing and a curse.  When you connect your computer to the internet by phone, you usually get a "real" IP address - that is, you can communicate with the rest of the internet directly.  The reason it's a mixed bag is that while you can transmit and receive files over most protocols very easily with a real IP (ftp and instant messenger systems work very well), it also means you're directly exposed to attack from hostile systems.

Most DSL (and cable) plans give you a single dynamic or static IP address.  A dynamic address may change from time to time, and a static one always stays the same (www.queststudios.com has a static IP address - it is always 63.247.72.210, unless you change hosting providers.  DNS, domain name service, converts internet names to IP addresses, transparently for most cases).  This IP address is then assigned to your router.  Everything behind the router is then on something called a "private network" - often IP addresses using a scheme of 192.168.x.x or 10.x.x.x, which are special reserved ranges for private networks.  Connections to the outside world go through the router and are converted through Network Address Translation, or NAT.  The best analogy to this is that in an office, you may have to dial 9 to get to an outside line... and people outside cannot dial you directly either.

In this sense, private networks are more secure just due to the address translation.  The router will attempt to intelligently route information to the correct computers on your network, but usually it can only do this if you have initiated a connection from your internally networked computer *first*.  You have to configure the router specially if you want to provide a way for the outside world to contact one of your computers specifically.

On a DSL connection it becomes more important than with a phone connection to beware of infection or attack from outside systems, because those attacks can compromise your system that much more quickly, and with an always-on connection, you'll be attacked almost continuously.

A discussion of public versus private IP networks can be found here:  http://www.wmld.com/tech/privateipnums.html

Side comment:  In any case where you are setting up a new computer with a brand new OS install, unless you have Microsoft's service packs on a CD already, I strongly recommend setting the system up behind NAT before downloading the patches, because your system can be compromised in the time it takes to download the patches before you can even apply them!

If you want, you can order from many DSL providers the option of having "static IPs."  This can provide you with more real IP addresses for your internal computers, useful if you want to host anything directly off of your DSL system, and as I mentioned before, if you use instant messaging, that tends to work better too.  (IM systems don't do so well sending/receiving files between two people if both individuals are behind separate Network Address Translation systems).  In your case, Tom, you probably will do just fine using an all-private network behind your router.  Static IPs for your computers usually costs more money and the benefit is small for most people compared to the trouble they can bring.

Now, on to your new internal private network.  Actually, you can already put multiple computers at your home online simultaneously with a single dialup connection, using either Windows ME or Windows XP, with a software program built-in called ICS, or Internet Connection Sharing.  Using a single system to dial out, that system can also behave as a router for additional home network computers, and it does its own NAT thing.  Surprised you never thought to set that up!   Earlier versions of Windows had ability as well, but only with shareware or commercial add-on software that did the same thing (such as WinGate: http://www.wingate.com/).

Networking together your PCs, you'll want to get 100baseT cards.  The number at the front represents the data speed; 100 is 100 megabits per second, or - after subtracting overhead of the TCP/IP protocol - roughly 10 megabytes per second.  By comparison, a 10baseT card would give you 1 megabyte per second.  I don't even think you can find 10baseT cards anymore.  And, you can certainly find 100baseT cards even in old trusty ISA format, though you may have to do a little extra hunting.  A quick search on Pricewatch.com doesn't find much - but I did find this:  http://www.ictcompany.com/store/productn.asp?item=3C515-TX.  You can pop one of those in even your 386 with Windows 95.  You might even get one of those working on your Windows 3.11 system with Microsoft's free TCP/IP drivers that they released in '95.

Why get 100baseT (10 megabytes per second) rather than 10baseT (1 megabyte per second) when your DSL speed won't come anywhere close?  (256k is roughly 25.6 kilobytes per second - or only .0256 megabyes per second!)  Well, it's still nice to have your internal network speeds working well.  You'll be able to transfer data from one PC to another in the blink of an eye, without having to write it to a floppy disk or CD-ROM.  You can network all of your PCs together very easily using ethernet (RJ45 connector - looks a bit like a phone plug but it's wider).  I do not recommend using coaxial cable for your network - it's a nightmare because you have to connect all of your computers in serial.  Use ethernet, and run all of your cables to a common switch (usually most routers have at least 4 RJ45 recepticles, and contain a network switch, free).  Note, there are even faster speeds, but, "Gigabit" (may be called 1000baseT) is still too pricy for the home user, so I wouldn't worry about *that* much speed.  100Mbit, however, is cheap (no more so than 10baseT, really) and fast enough that you can use a 52x CD-ROM drive on one computer read a CD-ROM that you're accessing over the network to another computer, at full speed!  Pretty cool stuff.

If you need more networking ports to connect your computers, you can buy a network switch.   There are actually two kinds of simple network routing devices - switches and hubs - if you need one, get a switch, they're better than hubs generally, and the price difference in the 100Mbit range is not all that different anymore.

If you want to go the professional installation route for your networking, and run it through the walls, you can get everything you'd need at The Home Depot.  A brief article on home wiring is here:  http://www.wap.org/journal/wireethernet.html

Now let's hop a step into the future - how about wireless?  You can avoid the fuss over the cables and everything if you buy a wireless card for each computer.  Some DSL providers even provide a router that includes wireless routing these days, or, you can connect a wireless access provider (WAP) system to your router.  Then, you add a card to each computer.  Disadvantages:  This may not be so compatible with older OSes (Windows 3.1, 95), it's more costly (the cards and WAP are not cheap), and speeds are slower (even the "turbo" or "108g" systems in reality give you about 1/4 of the speed you'd get from a 100Mbit system).  Finally, there's all the wireless terminology to learn - such as 802.11a, 802.11b, 802.11g ... just so you know, you'd want "g" if you go this route.  "a" and "b" are pretty much dodos by today's standards.

Well, that's a quick primer on the issues that come to mind.

Oh, one last thing - you can find a lot more information on DSL at http://www.dslreports.com/, lots of FAQs, and also support for searching on availability in your area - find out if you're stuck with a single provider or if others could provide a better deal.

I went ahead and searched on your address & phone number, and the information was a bit sparse; it didn't list the offer you have, but it does mention Earthlink Satellite Direcway data.  You might want to consider it - it's higher latency* (I wouldn't recommend trying to play World of Warcraft over a satellite link) but the download speeds look like they'd be better than DSL.  But ouch, pricey... $70/mo?  Sad   And uploads are not much better than the phone line.  Oh well, here's the link for you to look at:  https://store.earthlink.net/cgi-bin/wsisa.dll/store/product.html?product=satellite

Still surprised you can't get /cable/ internet there...

* Latency is a function of both speed and distance.  Latency is the time it takes for data to travel between one point and another and back again.  If the speed of the interstate by your house is 65MPH, that's how fast traffic travels on it, but there's a higher latency between your home and St. Louis than between your home and Green Bay.
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Tom
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« Reply #4 on: January 08, 2005, 02:22:04 PM »

Wow!  This is great information; it's just what I wanted to know.  Thanks!

Dianne gave me the go-ahead this morning to do the DSL thing, so I'm going out today to buy a couple of ethernet cards and RJ45 cables.

The service we decided on is called "Tidal Wave" from our local telephone company, Bayland Telephone.  We do have the option for cable broadband, but it's just too expensive.  Cheaper if you have cable television service, which we haven't had in years.  (We've been using satellite for television service since 1992.  I'd never go back to cable.  Our service has been excellent since day one.)  Our only other option for DSL is through, as Ghost_Rider guessed, CenturyTel.  The deal isn't as good as the service is basically the same.

I told the tech at Bayland what we wanted to do...as far as connecting two or more PC's to the router, and he said I could connect several PC's -- but I need a 'hub'.

We didn't get any of the details regarding static or dynamic IP's, so I'm glad you brought this up.  My most worisome aspect of DSL is the ALWAYS ON connection.  From what I've been able to determine, a router acts as a firewall.

Just a couple of additional questions:
Can you turn the router off so you're not connected?  

Do all PC's in the network have to be powered up in order for connections to the 'Net to function on the other PC's?

I'll do some checking, but since I have to buy a 'hub', is there something I need to know about these as far as quality issues or features?  Are they typically, expensive?

Quote
Actually, you can already put multiple computers at your home online simultaneously with a single dialup connection, using either Windows ME or Windows XP, with a software program built-in called ICS, or Internet Connection Sharing. Using a single system to dial out, that system can also behave as a router for additional home network computers, and it does its own NAT thing. Surprised you never thought to set that up!


We don't use ME or XP and don't plan on it anytime soon.  I use both consistantly at work (along with Win2000 and NT 4 -- don't know why they have so many OS's going in just our lab; I imagine the whole hospital is running a variety of Win versions.)  We're both running Win98 SE and probably won't update the OS until XP is more ... together.  But there's really nothing in XP that intrigues me to update.  Win98 runs very fast on my P4, and everything I need it for works just fine, so there's really no reason for me to update at this time.

Our dialup account is free with our regular telephone service.  We added a second dialup account because we're often online at the same time, trying to access different accounts requiring different login info.  Our dialup connections are SO slow as it is (NEVER saw a 5.2kbps connection, though our modems -- and the ISP's modems are v92's.)  I don't even want to think of how much slower things would be if we shared a connection!  There's only so many kb's to go around on a dialup.

---------------

Satellite Internet service through DirecTV is too expensive, and upstream transfers are little better than dialup.  I would only use satellite if we had no other options.

I would like to consider the possibility of someday becoming my own host, and using one of my systems for this purpose.  I would imagine that requires additional equipment (a least a more sophisticated router, and of course additional software), but I don't know enough about it at this time to do it.  I'd want to be pretty well educated on how it all works before I was connected as a host.

Thanks again, everyone, for your help!
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Laust
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« Reply #5 on: January 08, 2005, 05:31:22 PM »

Can you turn the router off so you're not connected?

Yes, although a nicer solution would probably be to simply disconnect the network cable (either from the router to the ADSL modem or from the router to the hub/switch).

Do all PC's in the network have to be powered up in order for connections to the 'Net to function on the other PC's?

Not with a hub/switch.

I'll do some checking, but since I have to buy a 'hub', is there something I need to know about these as far as quality issues or features? Are they typically, expensive?

Price on these has been reduced drastically in recent years (I remember when a switch was a big noisy metal box, which cost a lot Smiley). Although you might still be able to get an actual hub, what you want is a "network switch (10/100mbit)", which yields much better performance and costs next to nothing these days. An eight port switch costs around 30 dollars here (converting the price from Danish currency, so it's likely to be less) and five port ones are even cheaper.

I like a company called "TRENDnet", having several of their 8 port switches. Small, cheap, and reliable. Any generic Asian brand will probably do, though (I'm guessing the guts are essentially the same), and provide all the required features. I just have good experiences with these Wink
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Ghost_Rider
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« Reply #6 on: January 08, 2005, 07:15:29 PM »

One thing you might want to ask Bayland Tel about TidalWave is if it's offered in both ADSL and SDSL.

ADSL (Asymmetric Digital Subscriber Line) is great for most home users, geared towards downloading, and not so much for uploading.  Usually something like 384k download and 128k upload.

SDSL (Symmetric Digital Subscriber Line) is usually better for users that do a fair amount of uploading; as well as downloading.  So it's even, 256k download and 256k upload.

If you don't do much uploading then nevermind, was just thinking about for when you're sending digital audio files up to servers, etc.  Most residential customers have ADSL... because many people download tons of music, and don't upload much.  SDSL doesn't make sense for most people, but might for you, just depending on how much you send from your PC(s) to hosted servers.

The Central Office is located on the southeast corner of Main Street and Superior Avenue, in case you wanted to check the distance to your home.
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moturimi1
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« Reply #7 on: January 08, 2005, 07:33:47 PM »

I have DSL.
You only need a 100base card if your Motherboad doesn't have a ethernet port. All newer one have at least one port. If you need to buy a ethernet card, get the cheapest one you can get.
Cabeling is no problem. I have a wireless DSL router, where I connected my notebook through wireless LAN and my PC with the LAN port.
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Tom
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« Reply #8 on: January 08, 2005, 08:34:26 PM »

Just picked up two ethernet cards for Dianne and I, and looked for 'hubs'.  They didn't have any at Best Buy.  Instead, they had Routers with built-in switches.  There were several wired and wireless routers, all of which had built-in switches.  And they were all inexpensive.

I'm hoping I can buy and use my own router with Bayland's DSL service.  Seeing that there's requires an external hub or switch, I'm thinking it's probably a bit...primitive?  (Maybe, 'cheap' is the word.)

Bayland has said nothing about ADSL or SDSL.  I plan on doing a fair amount of uploading, so I'd want the later, I suppose.

I want to get connected and get a feel for how this system functions, then both Dianne and I want to eventually learn the ropes of running our own server.  We're figuring it's going to cost us less annually then renting space from hosting services.  I have a lot of learning to do before I'm ready for it, but I want to make it my goal for this year.  Both Dianne's and my domains don't receive a large amount of traffic, so I think it's do-able with a minimal investment.
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Tom
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« Reply #9 on: January 08, 2005, 08:36:07 PM »

Just picked up two ethernet cards for Dianne and I, and looked for 'hubs'.  They didn't have any at Best Buy.  Instead, they had Routers with built-in switches.  There were several wired and wireless routers, all of which had built-in switches.  And they were all inexpensive.

I'm hoping I can buy and use my own router with Bayland's DSL service.  Seeing that theirs' requires an external hub or switch, I'm thinking it's probably a bit...primitive?  (Maybe, 'cheap' is the word.)

Bayland has said nothing about ADSL or SDSL.  I plan on doing a fair amount of uploading, so I'd want the later, I suppose.

I want to get connected and get a feel for how this system functions, then both Dianne and I want to eventually learn the ropes of running our own server.  We're figuring it's going to cost us less annually then renting space from hosting services.  I have a lot of learning to do before I'm ready for it, but I want to make it my goal for this year.  Both Dianne's and my domains don't receive a large amount of traffic, so I think it's do-able with a minimal investment.
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Marten
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« Reply #10 on: January 08, 2005, 09:17:30 PM »

I would recommend CompUSA over Best Buy if you have any in the area.
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Tom
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« Reply #11 on: January 08, 2005, 10:03:51 PM »

The closest CompUSA store is 120 miles away.  But they are online.

I'm looking at D-Link, Linksys, and TRENDnet routers and they all seem to offer about the same features at around the same price.

I'm sorry to be a pest with this, but I'm still confused a bit on how all of this stuff connects.  Like, where does the DSL Modem come into play?  Some are internal, and some external.  According to some router adds I've read, up to 500 PC's can share the same DSL modem at the same time.  Huh

Bayland said nothing about a DSL modem, either, nor did they say we needed one.  All they said that we have to supply is the ethernet cards, and the wiring to connect to the router.  I found DSL modems ranging from $30 to $800!!!  Geezzz....kind of like the difference between a bicycle and automobile?

Gonna run to Barnes & Noble soon to pick up some books on this stuff, and see if they have anything on "How To Create Your Own Server."  Smiley
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« Reply #12 on: January 08, 2005, 10:38:08 PM »

This is how most basic home systems go:

1)  Phone cord goes from phone jack (through a DSL filter) into the DSL modem provided by the DSL provider.

2)  Cat5 or Cat6 cable goes from DSL modem into DSL router.  This provides the DSL router with it's connection to the modem.

3)  Cat5/6 cable(s) go into the network cards in your PC(s)

So the modem is plugged into a phone jack, and the router acts as your internet mini-server - it is always connected to the internet, as long as it's plugged in.  Then you can plug your PC(s) into the back of the router.

There is another scenario without a router... the modem plugs right into your computer, but then you need an extra cable, usually USB for the part that goes into your PC.  That only works for one PC though.  Better to go with the router.  Most routers also have firewalls built in, and that's always a good thing.

Just note that the modem, and the router, both need power.  The DSL filter is just a short cable that plugs into your phone jacks.  You must put one on every phone in the house, otherwise the internet probably won't work, and the phones might not either.  Those should come with the modem.
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Marten
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« Reply #13 on: January 08, 2005, 10:51:05 PM »

If the DSL company provides a router, but says you need your own hub, then buy a switch.  Don't buy a full blown other router Smiley  You're just throwing money away.

Netgear's stuff is OK too.

Sorry for terse replies; in process of moving.
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Danny
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« Reply #14 on: January 09, 2005, 12:06:37 AM »

Ok, my recommendation is this.  You'll basically need to use the provided DSL Router, so add a 8-port switch.  Most of what you'll find at stores these days are switches, which are preferable over a hub.  Then, just hook the router and additional computers to the switch.  As far as brands, I've had a lot of sucess with D-Link equipment, and I think most would agree.  Although,  Linksys, do yourself a favor and avoid at all costs.  Linksys routers especially do some crazy stuff that drive their owners nuts.

This suggestion may not be applicable to you, but you'll find that even with proper filter installation, DSL will likely add audible noise to your telephone signal.  If your house has or has had a 2nd phone line wired up, I'd recommend using that line for your DSL service.  If you have a wired 2nd line which is no longer in use, you'll usually have a pay a small fee for a "naked" DSL line, meaning without telephone service.  For our provider, Qwest, it is $5 a month.

As a side note, if you think a 8-port switch is excessive, for the small increase in price, it's a good investment.  If you consider our home network, we have
1) Wireless Router/DSL Modem
2) Computer
3) Computer
4) Computer
5) Printer
6) TiVo
7) **Open**
8) **Open**

Using a switch really is your best option.  All computers can have access to the internet without being dependent on connection sharing from another computer.  And with a switch, your local networked computers will be able to communicate at 100Mbps.  Routers also feature a firewall which will be your first line of defence for your home network.  You'll have to learn how to configure your router if you need to run services behind your firewall like a FTP server for example, but that's usually pretty simple to do.  The only gripe I have about my DSL Modem/Wireless Router is that I'm stuck with the router, and I'd rather have my old D-Link router I used with our cable modem, but I get by.
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« Reply #15 on: January 09, 2005, 12:42:03 AM »

Although Ghost_Rider explained the connection already, here is a picture with the "right connection" of DSL. I hope you understand the German text.  Unfortuneately only ADSL is inexpensive here in Germany.

http://www.netcologne.de/service/262734_df8ee97224.gif


Get a Wireless Lan Router with at least 4 Lan Ports. I love wireless LAN. You can connect 256 Computers via one Wireless Lan port of the router. (no wires on the floor!!!) But if you want to use wireless LAN be sure that the DSL router can handle WPA coding. Only WEP coding isn't save.
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Ghost_Rider
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« Reply #16 on: January 09, 2005, 01:43:05 AM »

Good idea, pictures speak a thousand words.  Here's another good one:

http://www.homenethelp.com/web/diagram/share-router.asp


Another one from the same site:

http://www.homenethelp.com/web/diagram/share-router-hub.asp


This site is really good, if you go to the main page, you can look at pictures of all different kinds of setups, depending on what components you have:

http://www.homenethelp.com/web/diagram/index.asp
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Tom
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« Reply #17 on: January 14, 2005, 03:23:11 AM »

Thanks everyone for all the info on DSL.  I've been doing A LOT of reading (hours and hours, literally) on DSL and Server technology.  I think I have a handle on how DSL and broadband work, in general.

My focus has switched to servers, and creating my own.  I'm still in the early stages of deciphering everything, but I've been reading tons on it.  Thus far, I'm pulling towards FreeBSD for the server's O.S., and running Apache, MySQL, MyPHP, and a few other neat portals I'm seen.  Windows 2003 Server is probably much easier to setup...well, maybe a little, but I hear of too many problems with Win servers and php; and Windows databases.  Plus, I don't care much for Bill Gates. Smiley

I was trying to find a good Control Panel type front end, but my favorite...CPanel, is just too expensive.  I'm sure there's probably a few good open source control panels available if I look.  FreeBSD has over 12,00 portals (programs) available for it, and many commercial products are designed with FreeBSD support.  

Has anyone heard of any negatives with the latest FreeBSD (v5.3) O.S., or just have any experience they can share about FreeBSD?

Oh yeah, I'm not planning on networking any PC's.  We really don't want to, or see any need to.  We're just sharing an internet connection.
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« Reply #18 on: January 14, 2005, 09:09:41 AM »

Tom, have you looked at MamboServer?
(http://mamboserver.com/)
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Tom
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« Reply #19 on: January 14, 2005, 12:36:06 PM »

Mambo isn't quite what I'm looking for as far as control over a web server.  I'm looking for something like "Ensim" of "CPanel", that provide a graphical interface to control and setup redirects, domains and subdomains, error pages, IP deny's, CGI, files, webmail and email and FTP accounts, autoresponders, MIME, and so on.  

I'm also thinking seriously of RedHat Linux for a server O.S., but I'm confused on it's cost.  I had thought it was free, but that's not the case.  (It's also quite 'cryptic' in use, which worries me a bit as a beginner.)
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