The Fantom XR is GS "compatible" (??!!?)

[shad0wfax]

Hi everybody,

While consulting Fantom's user manual looking for some info I needed, I saw, quite hidden and written in a tiny font, info about some menu parameters to control some aspects such the ability to receive or not sysex data, GM and GM2 system on messages, and... GS reset messages, among other stuff. I believed that the only standard that the Fantom XR followed was GM/GM2, besides its own native mode (which is where the real fun resides). In fact, the only logo you can see in the faceplate is the GM2 logo, no GS nor XG.

So I tried to make some tests in order to see what happens when you intend to play GS midi files in the XR. Well, the results are that the Fantom XR DOES recognize the GS standard, and correctly interpretes GS data such as bank select and GS drum maps. All GS patches and drum kits seem to be there, and it seems even to interpret effect data (chorus and reverb) correctly, so it seems that the Fantom could be considered a "GS compatible sound module".

BUT... The sound itself it's noticeably different from "real" GS synths such as SC-55. After doing some tests, it seems that the XR uses patches from the GM2 map to build the GS sound map. So it really cannot be used as a "SC55-like" module, but only to get a loose idea of how does a GS midi file sound like. It seems that Roland has definitively dropped the original SC-55 sound map in newer synths. I also have a SD-20 and the GS map, while being much closer to the "real thing" than the XR, it's still quite different from the sound canvas. It's pretty close, though.

But this discovery makes me wonder whether some other Roland stuff not officially GS compatible (such as the JV-1080, for instance) does also have the GS sound maps and can, better or worse, play GS midi files.

[Cloudschatze]

shad0wfax,

The XV-5080 also responds to a GS Reset command, although, as you've discovered, "SC-55 compatible GS" it is not. This is likely part of the reason they cannot claim GS compatibility, in addition to the lack of MT-32 tones.

I found a utility out at Roland's Japanese website which converts GS and XGLite to GM2, and vice versa. The resulting conversion is rather poor however...

[Alistair]

I guess the reason Roland would pretend to have GS compatibility is firstly that GS is so popular even now, and secondly, the XR has a myriad of tones and can effectively compensate.

- Alistair

[moturimi1]

The GS map (without MT-32) is included in the GM2 map, so it's no problem for the Fantom to use the right instrument. Same with the GS drum map.

[Triton^]

I'm very sure my JV-1080 is not GS compatible. It only has a GM Bank and 3 other preset banks. I've tried playing GS files and they just sound terrible since it doesn't map instruments correctly.

[Alistair]

Aha, there you go, awesome, Moturimi

- Alistair

[shad0wfax]

You're right, Moturimi, although that's not totally true regarding the drum kits. GM2 and GS drum kits share their names (standard, room, etc.), but the mapping is not exactly the same. For instance, in GS you get a bright or light snare in E1, whereas in GM2 the same key stands for an electric snare. There are some other differences in keymapping. What I mean is that there is some work to try to emulate GS in the Fantom XR (it's not a simple GM2 remake), since all patch and drum maps are the same, although it sounds differerent than the real sound canvas.

[Kaminari]

Is the Fantom compatible with XG? Because Yamaha XG devices have always been (more or less) GS compatible via a custom mode called TG300B -- it's basically a GS to XG on-the-fly remap.

[shad0wfax]

No, I'm afraid it's not. The manual says nothing regarding XG reset messages (as opposed to GM, GM2 and GS reset messages), and anyway, I've tried it and can confirm that it doesn't recognize XG specific data (it tries to play the midi as it were GM). But AFAIK, most "true" Roland GS devices are not XG compatible.

[moturimi1]

@Shad0wfax:

Why are you selling your SD-20? Some weeks ago you said the module is ok for GM and GS. Don't you want to have a module for GS compatibility? As you mentioned in this thread the Fantom XR is also GS compatible. Is this why you sell the SD-20? I have to say you paid a lot for the module! I got it for only 155 Euro incl. shipping! Therefore I sold the SD-90, don't know why I did not stay with the SD-90. It's far superior to the SD-20 in sound quality, although they use the same Patches!

[shad0wfax]

I'm still interested in having GS compatibility, but I'm selling my SD-20 because I think I could have a better use for the money, for example: I could buy a "true" GS module (SC-55 or simmilar) and also a light controller keyboard (I use a stage piano as a master keyboard but sometimes I would like to have a smaller, lighter keyboard for playing some instruments); or I could look for a higher end GM2/GS/XG module (for non-compatible modes, I already have the Fantom), such as the SD-80 or the MU-1000. I still don't know what to do, I've to think a bit more about that.

That's all; I'm not selling the SD-20 because I think it's a bad module. Regarding the price: did you buy it new? I did, but I'd like to know where to get SD-20's as cheap as yours!

[moturimi1]

It was 4 months old, when I bought it. It came with in the original box with all equipment. I paid more as another ebay member who bought an SD-20 on ebay in the same week for only 119 Euro. I missed this auction.
You just have to take a look at all auctions within the EU.
I bought the SD-90 for 330 Euro incl. shipping from ebay.uk. So you can see that you can get the equipment very cheap, although it was used. (only problem is the guarantee, ... but as long as it works!!) Don't know why I sold the SD-90 to stay with the SD-20.

[Cloudschatze]

Not to resurrect a dated thread, but I thought I'd post Roland's "official" response to the question.

Original, Japanese response.

Babelfish-translated Jap-lish.

[Alistair]

Can you translate the translation, Eric? Or Kaminari or someone?

I tried understanding it but can't.

- Alistair

[NewRisingSUn]

Q:
Does the XV series support the GS format? If yes, which GS sound source does it sound like?

<Summary>
This document explains whether the XV series or the Fantom support the GS format.

<Pertaining to products>
XV-3080/XV-88/XV-5080/Fantom/XV-5050/XV-2020

A:
The XV series/Fantom can be made to support the GS format by receiving the "GS Reset" message.

- GS Format support can not be set by manipulating the unit's panel.
- It is not possible either to tell from the display whether the unit is in GS Format or in GM2 mode.

The XV series/Fantom's GS format support does not sound like previous GS sound sources. The waveforms used in GS Format support [mode] are the same as the ones used in patch mode and performance mode. Therefore, the sound produced differs from existing GS sound sources such as the SC-55mkII or the SC-88 Pro. The GS format support extends [only] to timbre arrangement and parameters.

Furthermore, while GS format support is enabled, only 226 timbres and 9 drum sets are selectable.

[arfy]

well, that about sums it up for everything after the 8820 imho, unless there's a module I've mist... From what I've herd of the sd-20/80/90, it's "gs" only extends to patch arrangement and parameters, not the sounds... and it's the same, only 226 sounds and 9 drumsets are accessible.

[shad0wfax]

I used to have an Edirol SD-20, and in GS mode, although it doesn't sound exactly as a SC-55, it sounds much closer to it than the Fantom in GS mode. In fact, I think that the Fantom uses GM2 sounds in GS mode (and that's NOT the case in edirol's SD series).

[moturimi1]

Shad0fax is right. The SD-series has 3 sound sets. classic, contemporary, solo. For the GM and GM2 playback the module uses the contemporary set as standard. For GS it uses the classical sound set, which is closer to the SC sound than the other sound sets.

[arfy]

For the GM and GM2 playback the module uses the contemporary set as standard. For GS it uses the classical sound set, which is closer to the SC sound than the other sound sets.

If you had to describe the sound of the classical set, which sc would you say it's closest to? 55, 88? This has got me thinking... Wonder if the sd-80/90 has an ethnic drum set or percussion?

[moturimi1]

No the SD-series don't have an ethnic drum set. Only the GM2 drum sets in different variations. The additional Sounds of the SD-80 and SD-90 are mostly guitar, orchestra and electronic sounds.
It's hard to describe the sound characteristic of the GS mode. It would be better if you hear it for yourself. You can listen to some GM music recorded with this module on my "homepage". (but only in GM mode with solo or contemp. set) You can also compare the SD-20 with the SD-90 sound quality.
If you want me to record some special mid file, I can do it with my SD-20 (in GM and GS mode) and SC-55. Then you can compare it yourself.