MT-32 Sound Bank in Sound Canvases - Useless?

[Great Hierophant]

Most Roland Sound Canvases have a patch bank that includes the 128 MT-32 default LA sound patches.  Using them on MT-32 songs can sound reasonably decent, less so if the song or game uses custom instruments or affects the MT-32 parameters. But if you have a real MT-32, is there any real need for these patches? I mean, do any DOS games use them in General Midi/GS mode along with the regular GS patches?

As I read the SC-55mkII manual, it does not seem possible to use the MT-32 and GS sound banks at the same time.  You set the module to use the MT-32 sound bank and switch it back to the GS bank when you are done.  Therefore, what game would want to use the MT-32 sound bank of a Sound Canvas, being only an emulation, when they can use the true GS standard?  I ask because I am seriously considering buying a "MT-32 patchless" Sound Canvas.

I conclude that if you have an MT-32, there is no need for you to ever use the MT-32 patch bank of a Sound Canvas unless you are curious of how it sounds compared to the real McCoy.

[moturimi1]

I don't know any game that uses the MT-32 Emulation.

You can use the MT-32 and SC-55 patch banks at the same time for different parts!! Take a look at many GS midi files on this page. I think Tom and Alistair can help you. I think you just have to switch the bank (to #127) for the parts you want to use for the Emulation and then choose the instrument.
I don't know much about SYSEX, but there are also many programs around which makes this very easy. (GSEdit, GSAE)

[Great Hierophant]

As I understand you, a game that supports Roland GS midi synthesis devices could use some of the MT-32 patches in addition to the GS patches.  I'm sure there are some sounds or effects within the MT-32 patch bank that are good enough to tempt a game developer to use.  The question becomes did any?

[Alistair]

No, it's not useless at all!

Firstly, you can convert MT-32 files to Roland SC GS as opposed to GM, which is really useful with some patches like 'Doctor Solo', and 'Bellsinger', 'Syn Brass 1-4', etc., which really can't be converted *well*.

Secondly, you can use GS patches in mixing Sierra soundtracks digitally. I can think of 'Iceman' as a CD which Tom made where there a few GS 'Elec Gtr 2''s.
(GS tones are really good for giving MT-32 sounds a 'stereo' feel)

To use MT-32 tones- simply insert a 'Bank Select MSB' (aka Controller 0) value of 127 at the start of the channel.

- Alistair

[Great Hierophant]

So, essentially you can mix and match MT-32 and GS patches to suit your needs if you have the variation bank. If you prefer a GS instrument to a MT-32 instrument, you can use that.  On the other hand, if you can't find a good GS replacement for an MT-32 tone, then keep the MT-32 tone.  

Of course, if you had two synthesizers, you could also do this.  For example, say you had an MT-32 midi file but you wished to enhance it with some GS tones. You can set the parts of each module to whatever you preferred and simply silence the channels on the other module.  The CM-500 is ideal for this as it has two modes that allow you to combine LA and GS synthesis.  

I infer from your post that there may be patches in the MT-32 variation bank that are valuable in and of themselves, even though they are not as true as they could be.

[Alistair]

Well, neither Tom or myself would just use a MT-32 and MT-32 GS tones, we'd use GM, SC GS and ED (sometimes even XG!) tones to make CD's.
But yeah, you're essentially on the ball.

I infer from your post that there may be patches in the MT-32 variation bank that are valuable in and of themselves, even though they are not as true as they could be.

Yep. The fact that they're not exact is what makes them useful. If the GS tones were the same as the MT-32's, what use would they serve? Not much, ironically.

Some GS tones are rubbish though, like the Pizz, for example, which are basically just the SC-55 patches tweaked marginally. Others, like the Syn Brass are magical.

But I'm sure Tom can explain this better than me.

- Alistair

[shad0wfax]

As many of us have just said, there's no problem to use GS and MT tones at the same time, because you can access MT-32 tones via a bank change messege (CC#00). If I'm not wrong, some sound canvases has also the CM-64 preset bank (number 128, I think). But the point is that most of those patches are simply remappings of GS tones, so they are, mostly, no real new patches. I don't know if there are games which use them, though. But they are there, ready to be used if you want to

[Ari]

With some of the GS conversions I've done for Quest Studios, I used GM, GS, CM-32P and MT-32 patches all from my Sound Canvas SCD-15.

Some people will argue that the SC's MT-32's French Horns (number 2 especially) are superior to the SC's GM/GS horns, and same goes for the MT's oboe (Though I tend to disagree about the oboe). Personally, I like the SC's CM-32P brass section number 5. I've used it in quite a few non Sierra conversions I've made and also in my GS conversion of SQ4 Closing Scenes.

So yes, these modes are definitely useful, though no game I know of has ever made use of them.

[moturimi1]

No the SC-55 doesn't have the CM-64 64 additional sounds. But it has the CM-64/CM-32L drum set (bank 128). The SC-88/SC-88pro and SC-8850 have the CM-64 sounds in bank 126 (of the SC-55 sound set). But the sounds are not the real CM-64 PCM instrument. They seem to be the sounds from the SC-55 sound table, just remapped as shad0wfax mentioned.

[Great Hierophant]

The only devices I know of before the SC-88 that have the CM-32P patches are the CM-300, CM-500, SCC-1, SCB-55 and SCP-55.  In other words, only the gaming-oriented devices.  

I would gather that game developers, often, if not primarly used the SCC-1 and the SCB-55 when developing their General Midi/GS sound tracks.  

I see the disadvantages of each:
SCC-1 - ISA based card, difficult if not impossible to implement on todays PCs.  Also no easy way to tell if it has 317 or 354 patches.  Only 24-voice polyphony.
CM-300 & CM-500 - Only 317 patches and 24 voice polyphony
SCP-55 - No Windows XP drivers
SCB-55 - Requires recent Sound Card with Waveblaster header
SC-88+ - Different tonal characteristics to SC-55 based synth devices.

[Ari]

I see the disadvantages of each:
SCC-1 - ISA based card, difficult if not impossible to implement on todays PCs.  Also no easy way to tell if it has 317 or 354 patches.  Only 24-voice polyphony.
CM-300 & CM-500 - Only 317 patches and 24 voice polyphony
SCP-55 - No Windows XP drivers
SCB-55 - Requires recent Sound Card with Waveblaster header
SC-88+ - Different tonal characteristics to SC-55 based synth devices.

Actually, I see it as one of the advantages of the SCB-55 - the fact that you can still connect it to modern soundcards. I know it's not that easy to find them, but they are there.

[Juho Sippola]

I see the disadvantages of each:
SCC-1 - ISA based card, difficult if not impossible to implement on todays PCs.  Also no easy way to tell if it has 317 or 354 patches.  Only 24-voice polyphony.
CM-300 & CM-500 - Only 317 patches and 24 voice polyphony
SCP-55 - No Windows XP drivers
SCB-55 - Requires recent Sound Card with Waveblaster header
SC-88+ - Different tonal characteristics to SC-55 based synth devices.

Actually, I see it as one of the advantages of the SCB-55 - the fact that you can still connect it to modern soundcards. I know it's not that easy to find them, but they are there.

And I have built an adapter which can turn one into a MIDI device. Runs SCD-15 ATM. You might be interested in http://koti.mbnet.fi/tuhos/db50ext.zip which is the guide (from Elektor magazine) and http://koti.mbnet.fi/tuhos/mono_fliphori.bmp which is a cleaned-up picture of circuit board useful for PCB printing.

[Zemus]

SCC-1 - ISA based card, difficult if not impossible to implement on todays PCs. Also no easy way to tell if it has 317 or 354 patches. Only 24-voice polyphony.

No easy way? There's a manual... Including banks 126, 127, and the drums it has 391 patches. Excluding the drums, it has 382 patches, and excluding the CM-32P patches, and the drums, it has 317 patches. But that's a weird way to count it...

[moturimi1]

By the way even the Yamaha MU Series have a mode called C/M (Computer Modus) mode which is compatible with the CM-64.

[Tom]

I think the point was, P4 mobo's don't have ISA slots, and there's not many PCI sound cards out there with Wave Blaster headers.  I only knew of one P4 mobo that had an ISA slot, and I don't know if that's made any more.  If you're still content to use PIII and earlier technology (like me), and you can find them, the SCB-55 doesn't present a problem.

[Great Hierophant]

There are two variations of the SCC-1 and I don't know whether the manual was updated to reflect the increased number of patches.  This assumes the seller has the manual, he often does not.  If you had a bare board, it may be difficult to tell unless it was clearly marked "SCC-1B" in the silkscreen.

[robertmo]

I thought that you can make a SCC-1B card from any SCC-1 just by installing software. And that there was no real hardware SCC-1B.

[Great Hierophant]

I have information that confirms that the "B" in the SCC-1B refers to the extra bundled software included with the board, not the number of tones the card is capable of.  However, all SCC-1 cards contained in the SCC-1B bundle will contain the extra sounds.  There are some SCC-1s not contained in the "B" bundle that also contain the extra sounds, so there is still hope if ou want an SCC-1 with the extra sounds.  Perhaps comparing the chip markings will tell the difference, but I think its likely that the ROM is stored on those glop-top looking chips towards the bracket.  

The chief difference between the "older" SCC-1 and the "newer" SCC-1 is that the later SCC-1 has 37 extra variation tones you can select from in the GS sound set.  Now, I doubt that software alone will allow you to use those tones.  The tones are stored in ROM, so either the the later SCC-1s either had more ROM, which I doubt, used better compression of the tones to free ROM space to store more tones, added new tones to empty space in the ROM or made the new tones but still used the same ROM sounds.  I think the third is most likely, but the fourth is not impossible.  

Newer SCC-1s do not sport 28 voice polyphony or 18-bit DACs and that functionality cannot be added by software.

[HondaSiR]

I have never seen an actual SCC-1B on the internet and ebay. If they do exist then they are even more scarse than the SCC-1 or the SCB-55 daughtercard. I think the best route would be to wait for the SCB-55 to appear in ebay and bid hard on it. I did it some two years ago and I'm pretty happy with my copy ever since (it is more versatile than the ISA based SCC-1 and can be attached to an ISA or PCI based soundcard with a waveblaster header).

Another option worth considering is purchasing the external SC-55 MK2. It will attach to an old computer as well as the newest ones since it is an external module. It will cost more though with the added weight in shipping but I feel this is also a good route to take for long term enjoyment pleasure.

Just two choices in my book: Wait patiently for an SCB-55 (SCD-15) or get the SC-55 MK2. There are no substitutes.  

[Ari]

SCC-1 - ISA based card, difficult if not impossible to implement on todays PCs. Also no easy way to tell if it has 317 or 354 patches. Only 24-voice polyphony.

No easy way? There's a manual... Including banks 126, 127, and the drums it has 391 patches. Excluding the drums, it has 382 patches, and excluding the CM-32P patches, and the drums, it has 317 patches. But that's a weird way to count it...

It's weird that the SCB-55 and SC-55mkII are said to have 354 patches while they actually have 418 (not including drum kits).
The calculation is as follows: 128 GM sounds, 98 GS sounds, 64 CM-32P sounds (although most of these are just remapping of the GM/GS sounds, but still - not all) and 128 MT-32 sounds.

The SCC-1 and SC-55 have 381 sounds btw, not 382.