Pages: [1]   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: CM-series SFX in Leisure Suit Larry 5  (Read 3993 times)
0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.
Cloudschatze
Guest
« on: August 09, 2005, 04:57:29 AM »

Here is a recorded sample of song, "Gettin' Some Air," from Leisure Suit Larry 5. The "Laughing" sound-effect (Rhythm set, note #76) plays near the end of the recording, immediately following the wolf howl.

This was recorded from a CM-64, but plays the same on an LAPC-I, and CM-500.

http://www.reama.com/elw/LSL5.mp3

Here is the MIDI sequence used for the recording:

http://www.reama.com/elw/lsl5.mid
(You will need to obtain and send the LSL5 SYSEX file first, in order for this to play correctly)

Feel free to try it in-game. This can be easily accomplished by starting a new game, skipping the opening sequence, entering Larry's "Office", and choosing the song from his radio.

I know of no other use of such effects at this point. Someone ought to either dig through all MIDI data, or replay the game to possibly discover more.
Logged
Tom
Administrator
Senior Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,618



View Profile WWW
« Reply #1 on: August 09, 2005, 12:59:14 PM »

Thanks for providing the MIDI!

I did some experimenting with the LSL5 bank this morning to try and determine if this 'laughing' effect was intentional.  Since LSL5 does support the LAPC-I, CM-32L, CM-64, MT-32, and MT-100 ... at least there's a chance that it was intentional.

But the patch bank wouldn't seem to support that theory.  Three new sounds are part of MT-32's percussion channel after loading the bank:  Tech Snare, Cymbal Swell, and Bomb Drums.  (These sounds can also be found in the melodic bank.)  And there's room for more.  So, why isn't the "Laughing" sound in either the percussion or melodic part of the bank?  Seems strange that this sound would only be used for non-MT-32 L/A modules, since the f/x can be made into a patch for MT-32 playback.

When the 4A# percussion note is accessed, no sound is produced on the MT-32.  The CM-500 (CM-32L) produces the Laughing f/x on 4A#...as WELL AS many other, higher percussion notes.  That is to say, you can access the Laughing f/x through the CM-32L's percussion channel via at least 8 different percussion notes, once the LSL5 bank is transmitted.  Without the bank loaded, the CM-32L produces the Laughing f/x only on percussion note 6E.

What this tells me is that the CM-32L, etc. doesn't process the MT-32 patch bank 100% properly; the Laughing f/x shouldn't be repeated so many times on the percussion channel -- it makes no sense, and I've not seen anything like that before in a Sierra game.  And, if the Laughing f/x was supposed to be there, why wasn't it also included in the melodic bank, as was done with all the new percussion sounds?  

So if pecussion 4A# has no effect on the MT-32, why is it there?  By accident?  If I were to see at least ONE more example of this, using a primary f/x -- some scene in the game that really relies on a specific CM-32L f/x, I'd change my mind.  But for now, I'm convinced this was not intentionally done for CM/LAPC support.
Logged

Alistair
Senior Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 4,052



View Profile WWW
« Reply #2 on: August 10, 2005, 12:42:21 AM »

<laughes himself> Okay, now that I've finally listened to the track, there's NO WAY that that's intentional. Tom;s long post is very interesting, and I agree with most everything he's said.

But for sure, that's not what the composers intended, Eric. Smiley
I mean, in what way does the 'laugh' sound intentional? Sounds ridiculous. You may as well say that the SC-55 going 'ding' (chinese agogo or whatever it is) when the MT-32 plays a reverse cymbal in LSL5, is proof that LSL5 was composed for General MIDI. Sure, it doesn't make the exact same sound as the MT-32..

However- if any others play any other SFX, it could be interesting.

- Alistair
Logged
Great Hierophant
Senior Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 988



View Profile
« Reply #3 on: August 10, 2005, 01:35:23 AM »

I have heard the laugh sound effect in the K-RAP Rock tune, where it definitely does not belong.  I'm with Tom on this one, one more strike against the CM-32L's perfect MT-32 compatibility.
Logged

Tom
Administrator
Senior Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,618



View Profile WWW
« Reply #4 on: August 10, 2005, 01:41:50 AM »

So then...what IS that 4A# note used for on the percussion channel?  It produces no sound on the MT-32.  A boo-boo?  It's right on beat, so maybe Safan's fingers accidentily hit a third while he was composing; if using a drum machine, maybe it was a fluke from that.
Logged

Cloudschatze
Guest
« Reply #5 on: August 10, 2005, 04:47:02 AM »

The laughter is intentional.

More proof?

NewRisingSun points out that the "K-RAP Rap" song uses the CM SFX extensively. The "Car-Stop" sound-effect is used throughout the entire song, in addition to a single use of the "Laughing" effect.

Do a side-by-side with the CM and MT-32. You'll wonder where half the song went with the latter. Smiley
Logged
NewRisingSUn
Senior Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 634


View Profile
« Reply #6 on: August 10, 2005, 09:01:32 AM »

Quote from: Great Hierophant
I have heard the laugh sound effect in the K-RAP Rock tune, where it definitely does not belong.


And how do you figure that? Have you guys ever listened to early 90s' rap music? It's full of cheesy samples and gimmicks that sound completely out of place (which is why I normally don't like rap music).

Quote from: Tom
If I were to see at least ONE more example of this, using a primary f/x -- some scene in the game that really relies on a specific CM-32L f/x, I'd change my mind. But for now, I'm convinced this was not intentionally done for CM/LAPC support.


Well, see what Cloudschatze wrote, maybe that's what convinces you.

Quote from: Tom
What this tells me is that the CM-32L, etc. doesn't process the MT-32 patch bank 100% properly; the Laughing f/x shouldn't be repeated so many times on the percussion channel -- it makes no sense, and I've not seen anything like that before in a Sierra game.


That's not what happens on my CM-32L, but there actually is a bug in Sierra's MT32.DRV. The rhythm setup in the 1.pat/patch.001 file is 240 bytes long, MT32.DRV however sends 256 bytes to the MT-32, thus messing up the SFX on a CM-32L. The "Gettin' Some Air" song also uses the Windchimes sound effect on the percussion channel, which is completely silenced by said MT32.DRV bug. It's obvious that Sierra wasn't quite prepared for a Soundtrack that uses those CM-32L enhancements.

Quote from: Tom
And, if the Laughing f/x was supposed to be there, why wasn't it also included in the melodic bank, as was done with all the new percussion sounds?


Because it's not a new percussion sound.

Quote from: Spikey
You may as well say that the SC-55 going 'ding' (chinese agogo or whatever it is) when the MT-32 plays a reverse cymbal in LSL5, is proof that LSL5 was composed for General MIDI. Sure, it doesn't make the exact same sound as the MT-32.


That's a bad analogy, because it's not that it doesn't make the exact sound on the MT-32; rather, it makes no sound on the MT-32 at all. And by the way, Spikey: if Craig Safan composed the LSL5 soundtrack, then it doesn't matter at all what Mark Seibert said about it.
Logged
Tom
Administrator
Senior Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,618



View Profile WWW
« Reply #7 on: August 10, 2005, 11:28:03 AM »

Quote
Because it's not a new percussion sound.


When was it ever used before in a Sierra title?  In the realm of Sierra soundtracks, the "laughing" was most definitely a new sound back in 1992.  If a sound is accessed via the percussion channel, for sake of clarity, I call it a percussion sound.  And because the laughing sound doesn't allow for tonal change, I don't consider it a melodic sound.

Quote
Have you guys ever listened to early 90s' rap music?


Yes.  Even RAP typically makes musical sense, to some degree.  I agree with  Great Hierophant in that it doesn't fit in K-RAP.  It doesn't work.
Logged

Alistair
Senior Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 4,052



View Profile WWW
« Reply #8 on: August 10, 2005, 12:43:27 PM »

Quote
And how do you figure that? Have you guys ever listened to early 90s' rap music? It's full of cheesy samples and gimmicks that sound completely out of place (which is why I normally don't like rap music).

NRS, the reason it's out of place in here, and more so Gettin' Some Air, is because Gettin' Some Air (to use it as an example) is a serious song about, well, sex. It has all the appropriae MT-32 FX- InHale, Lone Wolf, etc. A silly baby laugh just doesn't make musical sense!

I can't think of any rap songs that use silly laughes either..

Quote
The "Gettin' Some Air" song also uses the Windchimes sound effect on the percussion channel, which is completely silenced by said MT32.DRV bug. It's obvious that Sierra wasn't quite prepared for a Soundtrack that uses those CM-32L enhancements.

Well, although I bow down to you as an authority on Sierra musicians, and Roland modules, I don't know how well you know LSL5's music. Again, why would Safan/Braymen use windchimes in a song like Gettin' Some Air?

I also question why Sierra would compose a soundtrack for the CM32L, when they supported the MT-32.. I have Safan's original Voyetra SNG file, and although it does contain the A#4 note, it signals the MT-32 (you know, NRS, the little 'm' in the channel). Just all seems very unlikely and irrational to me. I mean, Sierra composers n General MIDI days were forbidden to use GS! Various composers played with GS, it's true, but it didn't go into the game.

- Alistair
Logged
NewRisingSUn
Senior Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 634


View Profile
« Reply #9 on: August 10, 2005, 01:05:40 PM »

Quote from: Alistair
NRS, the reason it's out of place in here, and more so Gettin' Some Air, is because Gettin' Some Air (to use it as an example) is a serious song about, well, sex. It has all the appropriae MT-32 FX- InHale, Lone Wolf, etc. A silly baby laugh just doesn't make musical sense!


That's not a baby laugh, it's a woman's laugh. You might as well ask why use a Wolf sound in a piece about two humans having sex.

Quote from: Alistair
Again, why would Safan/Braymen use windchimes in a song like Gettin' Some Air?


I'm not interested in philosophy here. I'm just telling you that those sound effects are there, and that there is no reason to believe why they should be considered unintentional, other than because you don't like them. As for "why", why is the banana bent?

Quote from: Alistair
I also question why Sierra would compose a soundtrack for the CM32L, when they supported the MT-32..


The install program says "Roland MT-32, MT-100, LAPC-I, CM-32L or CM-64", thereby signifying that they supported all these devices, not just the MT-32.

Quote from: Alistair
I have Safan's original Voyetra SNG file, and although it does contain the A#4 note, it signals the MT-32 (you know, NRS, the little 'm' in the channel).


And that's supposed to prove what?

Remember that most gamers who wanted Roland sound just bought a LAPC-I (because of the convenience of having just to install a card) --- which has those sound effects as well ---, and not an MT-32.
If this confuses you, just replace every mentioning of "CM-32L" with "LAPC-I". Sierra by the way did sell the LAPC-I as well, if you take a closer look at their later catalogues.

Quote from: Alistair
Just all seems very unlikely and irrational to me.


It's irrational to dismiss the use of an instrument as unintentional just because you don't like it how it sounds. Otherwise, the Scottish bagpipe in and of itself would be just an unfortunate accident. Wink

Quote from: Alistair
I mean, Sierra composers n General MIDI days were forbidden to use GS! Various composers played with GS, it's true, but it didn't go into the game.


I don't know about there being an explicit prohibition or anything, it's just that Sierra's GENMIDI.DRV doesn't relay controllers it doesn't know --- that includes reverb and chorus. You can put them into the sound resource files, but they won't be sent. For example, SQ5 explicitly uses both the "Standard" and "Orchestral" drum sets; however, you won't know that by listening to the music while playing the game, only when you listen to the ripped files. But I guess you won't believe that either, because you "know" for a fact that Sierra prohibited using GS drummaps, therefore, any use of them must be unintentional, according to your reasoning.

And remember that Craig Safan was not a Sierra employee, so he might not care about their petty restrictions.

Quote from: Tom
Quote
Because it's not a new percussion sound.


When was it ever used before in a Sierra title?


No, but why does that matter? The sound is by default on the drum map, so why bother putting it on the melodic bank?

Quote from: Tom
Yes.  Even RAP typically makes musical sense, to some degree.  I agree with  Great Hierophant in that it doesn't fit in K-RAP.  It doesn't work.


First, just because you don't like it is no proof that the use is unintentional.

Second, as for "making musical sense" in "K-RAP rap" --- the laughing sound plays at the exact moment that the rest of the song pauses, thus filling the acoustic void, and the car stop sound effect plays whenever the hats/tambourines don't play, picking up the rhythmic drive --- so, at least from a formalistic point of view, it makes perfect sense.

Quote from: Great Hierophant
I'm with Tom on this one, one more strike against the CM-32L's perfect MT-32 compatibility.


What would be the other strikes?
Logged
Tom
Administrator
Senior Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,618



View Profile WWW
« Reply #10 on: August 10, 2005, 01:44:18 PM »

Quote
First, just because you don't like it is no proof that the use is unintentional.


I don't recall saying that I didn't like it.

I'll agree to disagree with you.  I don't see the logic in composing soundtracks on and for the MT-32 in all their other games...and making LSL5 an exception just so that Craig Safan can use a 'laugh' f/x for a couple of minutes.
Logged

Cloudschatze
Guest
« Reply #11 on: August 10, 2005, 02:50:12 PM »

Quote from: Tom
I don't see the logic in composing soundtracks on and for the MT-32 in all their other games...and making LSL5 an exception just so that Craig Safan can use a 'laugh' f/x for a couple of minutes.


You must not have done the "K-RAP Rap" comparison yet.

Again, there is more to hear than just the "Laughing" sample.
Logged
Tom
Administrator
Senior Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,618



View Profile WWW
« Reply #12 on: August 10, 2005, 08:56:49 PM »

You're right.  I hadn't yet, but I have now.  And the K-Rap sample is a better argument that Safan WAS using extended LAPC/CM capabilities.  The "Car Stop" sound does mimick a record scratch, which would be quite suitable in this song.  It's played like a scratch as well.  I take back my previous stance after hearing this.  (Still not convinced with the 'laugh', but it does work well in this.)

Have some more examples?  Anything later than Larry 5...like, Larry 6 or KQ6?
Logged

Alistair
Senior Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 4,052



View Profile WWW
« Reply #13 on: August 11, 2005, 01:49:55 AM »

Quote
Have some more examples? Anything later than Larry 5...like, Larry 6 or KQ6?

Those were both GM games..

- Alistair
Logged
Tom
Administrator
Senior Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,618



View Profile WWW
« Reply #14 on: August 11, 2005, 02:22:11 AM »

That's okay...I just want to look at the MT-32 supported games in a section known to access sounds found only on a CM/LAPC percussion channel.  Tire Screech and Laugh aren't part of the GM standard percussion set.
Logged

Pages: [1]   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to: