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Author Topic: Sound Canvas - Quality over Quantity  (Read 3681 times)
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Great Hierophant
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« on: September 14, 2005, 10:25:18 PM »

The Sound Canvas devices may be the "truest" midi sound device for late DOS, Windows 3.1 and early Windows 9x games.  They seem to offer the best overall sound quality of any supported midi device and they were widely supported.  

But there was a small problem that seemed to increase over time.  The polyphony, the number of voices that could be played at one time, amounted to an increasingly anemic 24 or 28 voices.  Such a card could not keep up with later devices like the Yamah a XG devices, which supported 64 polyphony.  While some games may have sounded their best with an SC-based device, the game may have been able to produce  more sounds on another device.
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Alistair
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« Reply #1 on: September 14, 2005, 11:49:31 PM »

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amounted to an increasingly anemic 24 or 28 voices

"Doctor, my old Sound Canvas is losing blood! What am I gonna do?!?"

"Nurse- 50 cc's of double negative. Stat!"

Why not just use a module like a SC-88 or SC-88VL, which sounded exactly the same in 55 mode, but would have 30 notes plus polyphony?

I don't think anyone would enjoy listening to a SC score in XG. I tried it the other day with my EQ2 MIDI soundtrack- nasty!

At any rate, 90% of Sierra GM games never have a polyphony issue. QFG4, maybe, GK1 I think migh have as well, but that might not be right.

- Alistair
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Great Hierophant
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« Reply #2 on: September 16, 2005, 12:33:18 AM »

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Why not just use a module like a SC-88 or SC-88VL, which sounded exactly the same in 55 mode, but would have 30 notes plus polyphony?


I am sure someone here can disprove that statement.  There are demonstrable differences between the SC-55 and the SC-88Pro in SC-55 mode, but I note that the SC-55mkII came out in 1992, the SC-88 in 1993 and the SC-88Pro in 1996.  The farther away sound modules are, the less accurate they seem to reproduce the older standard.
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Alistair
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« Reply #3 on: September 16, 2005, 02:50:39 AM »

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I am sure someone here can disprove that statement.  There are demonstrable differences between the SC-55 and the SC-88Pro in SC-55 mode, but I note that the SC-55mkII came out in 1992, the SC-88 in 1993 and the SC-88Pro in 1996.  The farther away sound modules are, the less accurate they seem to reproduce the older standard.

I never said SC-88 Pro, I said SC-88 and SC-88 VL. Read what I write next time. Tongue

I'm fully aware the SC-55 and SC-88 Pro/SC-8820/50 have different sound characteristics. However I get the feeling the SC-88 and 88VL are the same as the 55, therefore killing your argument.

So yeah, read what I write next time.

- Alistair
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Cloudschatze
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« Reply #4 on: September 16, 2005, 03:36:03 AM »

Of the later GS devices, playback on the PMA-5 sounds nearly identical to that of the SC-55.
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Great Hierophant
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« Reply #5 on: September 16, 2005, 12:58:22 PM »

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I'm fully aware the SC-55 and SC-88 Pro/SC-8820/50 have different sound characteristics. However I get the feeling the SC-88 and 88VL are the same as the 55, therefore killing your argument.

So yeah, read what I write next time.


I did, if the SC-88Pro is different, the SC-88, which uses the same synthesis engine as the SC-88Pro, if not the patches, may also sound different or do things differently than an SC-55, even in SC-55 mode.  Otherwise, I might buy an SC-88ST if the sound differences are negligible.
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shad0wfax
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« Reply #6 on: September 16, 2005, 01:47:39 PM »

Are you sure that the SC-88 and the SC-88Pro share the same synthesis engine? I don't know exactly, but I suspect that there are important differences between them. For example, while the SC-88 has two effect units (chorus and reverb), the SC-88Pro has 5 (reverb, chorus, delay, EQ and MFX). On the other hand, even if two synths share the same synthesis engine, it does not mean that they sound equal (for example, listen to a XV-2020 and a XV-5050, which share the same synthesis engine), because there are differences in circuitry and in the DACs, for example. And if the rom samples are different, they won't sound the same even with the same synthesis and DACs.
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Great Hierophant
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« Reply #7 on: September 16, 2005, 06:00:04 PM »

Why does it seem that no two Roland synthesizers sound alike?
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Cloudschatze
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« Reply #8 on: September 16, 2005, 06:30:41 PM »

Quote from: Great Hierophant
Why does it seem that no two Roland synthesizers sound alike?


"Specifications subject to change without notice."

It's very true though. I recently tested the output from an MT-32 (00 and 01), LAPC-I (00 and 01), CM-32LN, CM-64 and CM-500, and no two sound exactly alike.
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HondaSiR
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« Reply #9 on: September 17, 2005, 01:00:49 AM »

Does it really matter if no Roland L/A or GS module sounds exactly alike? They all perform well enough to render good MIDI music. For me what matters is having at least one of each format (L/A and GS) and playing the games and MIDI tunes to my heart's content. It also is a great help (in fact, necessary) to have very good speakers (I have Altec Lansing with sub-woofers).

Bottom line is...let's not worry how the sounds of an SC-55 differs from a Mark II, or how a  CM-32L differs from a CM-64. Let's be glad we own at least one if each standard. After all, how many of us here have the privilege of actually owning one or having the capacity of acquiring one.
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Alistair
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« Reply #10 on: September 17, 2005, 01:39:11 AM »

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I did, if the SC-88Pro is different, the SC-88, which uses the same synthesis engine as the SC-88Pro, if not the patches, may also sound different or do things differently than an SC-55, even in SC-55 mode. Otherwise, I might buy an SC-88ST if the sound differences are negligible.

That's simply incorrect! The SC-88 and 88Pro use different DAC's. And sound vastly different!

I get the feeling the SC-88 can function as a SC-55 mkII in 'SC-55 mode'. Which would be sweet. Smiley

The SC-88ST is inferior. 16 bit DAC apparently. Sounds likely to me that that's the case.

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Does it really matter if no Roland L/A or GS module sounds exactly alike? They all perform well enough to render good MIDI music. For me what matters is having at least one of each format (L/A and GS) and playing the games and MIDI tunes to my heart's content. It also is a great help (in fact, necessary) to have very good speakers (I have Altec Lansing with sub-woofers).

Yes, it DOES matter! When I mix General MIDI soundtracks (as General MIDI, firstly, and then) for CD I want it to be real SC-55 sound, not something else! I have a SC-8850. I don't like how it emulates my SC-55.

I don't like speakers for mixing. I always use headphones. Smiley

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Bottom line is...let's not worry how the sounds of an SC-55 differs from a Mark II, or how a CM-32L differs from a CM-64. Let's be glad we own at least one if each standard. After all, how many of us here have the privilege of actually owning one or having the capacity of acquiring one.

I do worry, Honda, man. It's very important to me.

Many of us have the capacity. There's not anyone who could legitimately say, 'I can't afford a MT-32'. Sound Canvas is different. I guess good SC's are important to me. If the sound quality changes, then I wil have bought something redundant, and they ain't cheap, as you point out.

- Alistair
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HondaSiR
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« Reply #11 on: September 17, 2005, 03:17:26 AM »

Your case is different, Alistair. You are one of the few here who mix, edit and play around with different synths. Of the few hundred members here, I think we will be lucky if 40% of them even own a real MT-32 and not an emulator.

I'm a little biased I must admit because I am a game player. I don't mix sounds...and even if I wanted to experiment with lots of synths, I don't have the financial capacity to do so. And I speak for most of the silent members here. Doesn't anybody realize that less than 100 people actually take part in our conversations? Wherein there are literally hundreds of registered users? Its just an observation really, but personally I'd like to have more active participants talking and not just lurking.
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Great Hierophant
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« Reply #12 on: September 17, 2005, 04:04:47 AM »

I think that game players should aim for the "Roland XX Sound", inserting XX with LA or GS for the type of synthesis desired.  Looking for the best, they should not accept a MT-32 acting as a GM/GS device or a GM/GS device emulating an MT-32.  Looking for features, a gamer should choose between the midi messages and older synth of the MT-32 and the extra sound effects  and less noise of a CM-32L.  

However, for almost all titles that support General Midi or Sound Canvas, you would hear nothing better with a GM compatible only device like the SC-7 or SCB-7 than if you had a SC-55mkII or SCB-55 (all boasting 28 voice polyphony, I think.)  I think sound developers at this time kept to General Midi for compatibility sake but used Roland devices for composing, which is why games generally sound best using Roland devices.  

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I'm a little biased I must admit because I am a game player. I don't mix sounds...and even if I wanted to experiment with lots of synths, I don't have the financial capacity to do so. And I speak for most of the silent members here. Doesn't anybody realize that less than 100 people actually take part in our conversations? Wherein there are literally hundreds of registered users? Its just an observation really, but personally I'd like to have more active participants talking and not just lurking.


I have remarked to myself how the conversation is dominated by the few. Alot of joiners and listeners, I guess, or people who had only one point to make.  This forum doesn't require registration to read posts, unlike some others I know.
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Alistair
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« Reply #13 on: September 17, 2005, 06:13:27 AM »

Well, on the note of members, for the few years I've been here I can think of hundreds of members who simply posted a few things like 'Will there ever be a KQ7 Soundtrack', or other such queries.

I guess the majority are from other Sierra forums, who wanted Sierra music. THey probably don't have much technical knowledge about Roland synths.

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I think that game players should aim for the "Roland XX Sound", inserting XX with LA or GS for the type of synthesis desired.

I agree with Honda here- It's not easy to just say 'I want true SC sound, let's find a 300 buck Sound Canvas'.

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Your case is different, Alistair. You are one of the few here who mix, edit and play around with different synths. Of the few hundred members here, I think we will be lucky if 40% of them even own a real MT-32 and not an emulator.

Yeah, but you were basically going against exactly what I was saying. Smiley I just posted a topic about the very issue you raised, so it's kinda naive to expect me to think your point is aimed at someone else.

Yes, but that isn't a valid argument, since most people post BECAUSE they don't have a MT-32, and want GM files or MP3's/OGG's. I wouldn't call them real game music fans. I think there's different kinds of members here, and I'm not saying any are worth more or less, I'm just clarifying your statement, Honda.
Firstly, those who just post because they want some music. Which is fine, that's why Tom has the site. Secondly, those such as yourself who want music, but have some knowledge, and care about devices like the MT-32. Thirdly, there's people such as Ari Stone or Zemus who know a little more and can play with GS and compose a little, and work with game music. Then there's myself and Tom, who have more technical knowledge and actively pursue full game soundtracks that we care about, using such technical knowledge.

So, to say 'most members don't have a MT-32', well, duh. Most come here because of that very reason.

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I'm a little biased I must admit because I am a game player. I don't mix sounds...and even if I wanted to experiment with lots of synths, I don't have the financial capacity to do so. And I speak for most of the silent members here. Doesn't anybody realize that less than 100 people actually take part in our conversations? Wherein there are literally hundreds of registered users? Its just an observation really, but personally I'd like to have more active participants talking and not just lurking.

Well, if you don't have the capacity to do so, that's what places like QS are for Smiley Tom has the money (well, some money, he obviously isn't rich or anything) and the knowledge, and he shares that with us, which we are all lucky for.

Don't you realise it's more like 20 people that regularly post? Smiley It's been like this ever since I can remember.

The reason there aren't any people posting is because number one, lots have got older (the bulk of original members from 1999 were already mid twenties I think) and are now 'too old' (although, Tom disproves the 'too old for Sierra' myth, I'm just generalising here).
Number two, people don't seem to reply much. I mean, I could post heaps of topics about Sierra music, but would 99% of people understand what I was asking?
Using a more common example, do people visit a Sierra music forum to post off topic stuff? I don't think so. Most of those threads get ignored anyway. I should know, I posted half of them Smiley

With Roland equipment, most people either know most things they want to or know nothing.

I guess the thing is, Honda, I'd love members to post more too. I've always wished for that. But people either don't care, don't know, or aren't around enough.

- Alistair
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