Better GS playback on Yamaha DB50XG?

[Laust]

I don't know if this has been covered before. Tried searching but didn't get any hits. It seems XG and GS are too short to be considered search terms, anyway.

Someone pointed out this tidbit from the DB50XG FAQ to me:

Q: How do I switch the DB50XG to TG300B mode, and what is this mode?

A: TG300 mode:
F0 43 71 7E 09 01 F7 (switch DB50XG to TG300 mode) or
F0 41 10 42 12 40 00 7F 00 41 F7

TG300B mode is essentially identical to roland GS mode. In fact it will even recognise roland GS commands at sysex level in this mode.

It looks very promising, so I'm wondering how well it sounds, in particular on some of the more optimized GS tunes (like Konami's Theme of Katherina, and Kim Burgaard's MIDIs) which fail to replay correctly on Microsoft's GS synth, Creative's cards, and the like.

Original webpage is here.

[Tom]

On my SW60XG, most GS files sound like crap.  Ummm...to be fair, some sound okay, but the mix usually isn't right, and some of the sounds definitely don't work as well.  Identical to GS mode?  Hmmm.  The DB50XG, to my knowledge, responds the same as the SW60XG.


In my manual, it states that in TG300B mode, the SW60XG "provides compatibility with the General MIDI Level 1 format."  Though I've also heard it's GS compatible, and it appears to play back GS files.  But to me, it's like saying the AWE32 is compatible with MT-32 music files when you use the MT-32 soundfont.

It's just like a lot of other MIDI devices -- some files work okay, some don't.

[Alistair]

Way I always did it was to send a GS reset file to the XG device, and then just play in 'GS mode' (aka TG300B mode).

- Alistair

[shad0wfax]

I used to have a DB50XG, and according to the documentation, this board (as many other XG devices) is GS compatible in the soundmap and at sysex levels in TG300B mode. But this does not mean that it sounds like a sound canvas. The actual sound depends on Yamaha's rom samples and synthesis engine (it's just like a "GM compatible synth": that a synth follows the GM standard does not mean that it sounds just like any other GM synth). Broadly speaking, GS files sound better on Roland than on Yamaha, but to be fair, this is at least in part because they are designed and composed on Roland GS synths and with those sounds in mind. It's just the same reason why XG files sound better on Yamaha gear than on Roland's XG compatible synths (like the SD-20, for instance).

[Kaminari]

Broadly speaking, GS files sound better on Roland than on Yamaha, but to be fair, this is at least in part because they are designed and composed on Roland GS synths and with those sounds in mind. It's just the same reason why XG files sound better on Yamaha gear than on Roland's XG compatible synths (like the SD-20, for instance).

Exactly.

The same holds true for "GS" files which have been composed on a 50XG in TG300B mode. I've met a couple of them which, although GS compliant, sound much better on a Yamaha synth precisely because those files were designed with the Yamaha sounds in mind.

According to my experience, TG300B is only compatible with standard GS (SC-55).

[Alistair]

What's you guys' point? We all know that Roland files play back nicer on Roland devices; Laust is just asking if it can be done for XG easily.

- Alistair

[shad0wfax]

If the question is how to play GS files on XG devices (such as DB50XG), the answer is that TG300B mode can be esasily set via a GS reset sysex message.

But, at least to my opinion, Laust is also asking about how GS midi files sound like on a DB50XG:

I'm wondering how well it sounds, in particular on some of the more optimized GS tunes (like Konami's Theme of Katherina, and Kim Burgaard's MIDIs) which fail to replay correctly on Microsoft's GS synth, Creative's cards, and the like.

And that's what we all try to answer, I think.

[Alistair]

No, you guys are saying it doesn't sound as good as a Sound Canvas, which isn't a very helpful answer, IMO anyway.

- Alistair

[shad0wfax]

Maybe it's just me, but telling that the DB50XG does not sound as good as the sound canvas when playing GS files, is giving an asnwer to the question "how well it sounds?", IMO

At least if someone asks me "how well does the DB50XG sound when playing GS files?", I'd say "Not as well as a sound canvas". Maybe it's not very helpful, as a better answer would be "just listen a roland sound canvas and a DB50XG and compare".

[Alistair]

My point being that obviously a ROland device will play back GS files better than an XG device. That's common knowledge, I'd have thought at least.. I'm sure it's not what Laust is trying to establish. But maybe it is. I wonder if he's still out there.

- Alistair

[Tom]

However, you can do a lot of sound and tone manipulation on an XG device, via SysEx.  The sounds are very customizable, and the old XG sound cards allowed you access to every parameter of every sound; I wouldn't know where to begin.  I'm sure that someone with some SysEx talent, a good ear, and is familiar with GS could create some SysEx that would make the XG emulate SC-55 GS very well.  As it stands now, I don't feel it's very good at all -- but I believe there's potential to make it VERY good.

[Alistair]

Agreed wholeheartedly. I remember listening to Tom's PQ3 Closing Scenes in GS on my MU100R, just for fun, a while ago, and thinking- this is almost really good! So yeah, I definitely think there's potential. I guess it's mainly difficult because the modules have such different sounds.

- Alistair

[jbltecnicspro]

Yes, but the question is what is "good sound?"  Seriously, I don't mean to be abstract here, but beauty is in the eyes of the beholder.  Laust may like his XG's GS emulation - it's all up to the listener.  Honestly, I do not like the way the Kings Quest VI digital tracks sound in comparison to my Technics, but that's because I'm used to Technics's sound, and to me, it sounds "normal."  Getting an XG to sound like a GS is crap, in my opinion - after all, one would buy a Yamaha XG over a Roland GS to hear different sounds, correct?  I know that Yamaha's Roland emulation often produces "imbalances," but some of these imbalances sound very unique and nice, and after all, even Roland units sound like crap when playing improperly implemented GS.  So in answer to Laust's question - yes, Yamaha can emulate GS, however if you're looking for a Roland sound, look elsewhere.  But it might sound good, you'll have to try this for your self with different music... After all, while a Viola certainly does not sound like a Cello, the Viola still sounds beautiful when playing a Bach Cello Suite.

[Tom]

Yes, but the question is what is "good sound?

Basically, for this topic, I'm only referring to the ability of one synth to emulate the tones and balances of another.  So, if a 'slow French horn' is playing (with an equally slow attack and/or decay), the same 'slow' French horn sound -- playing at the same volume level -- and with relatively the same overall balance with the other sounds is achieved.  The quality of the sound will vary, of course.

[Alistair]

Yes, JB, we're all well aware of this. However it is a fun an interesting point. There could well be default MT-32 patches which XG emulates better than the Sound Canvases.
And it's fun and a new way to listen.

Honestly, I do not like the way the Kings Quest VI digital tracks sound in comparison to my Technics, but that's because I'm used to Technics's sound, and to me, it sounds "normal."

Well, what that says to me is that your ears are untrained, because I really didn't like the Technics' rendition of 'NightMare'. Sure, there's the nostalgia argument, but the Technics is basically 'average 2MB soundfont quality'.

- Alistair

[jbltecnicspro]

Untrained?  Hmm, lemme rephrase what I said in the earlier post...  The Roland Version still sounds a little awkward to me, because I've been listening to the Technics for so long...  It's like going from Adlib to MT-32 - I appreciate both versions of the track but I'm partial to my keyboard, I'm afraid.  

Having "trained" or "untrained" ears does not have anything to do with my preference.  After all, I'll take a Sound Canvas rendition of War Craft over any of the Technics's stuff any day of the week... It's just that I don't like the Sound Canvas Nightmare track, period.  Don't tell me my ears are untrained, it's very insulting.  Besides, I never said that the Sound Canvas is utter crap - I just stated that I did not like its rendition of Nightmare, nothing more.  I do not train my ears to prefer a certain brand of sound modules, my ear likes what it likes, and it happenes to prefer a lesser synth's rendition of a particular song - take it or leave it.  I could argue your "untrained" statement further, but for sleep's sake, I'm gonna save it.

[Alistair]

Well, I say untrained because to me, 'trained' means objective. I don't mean it insultingly, but let's face it- the Technics rendition of NightMare is not good. The SC-55 sounds rather nice, and I didn't play KQ6 with a SC until the third playthrough.

If you think your synth does it better, in my opinion at least, that says your ears are nostalgic and can't discriminate, i.e. not trained, not objective.

I don't mean that in an insulting way, again- but saying you're 'partial to your keyboard' means (IMO anyway) that you're liking it because you've liked it in the past (nostalgia/tradition),and the liking has no bearing on instrument quality/etc. So to me, that would suggest that you don't have trained ears. Or maybe the synth isn't so bad. but I tend to believe the former.

- Alistair

[jbltecnicspro]

Yeah, you're absolutely right.  I admit that the Technics sounds aren't good, and the only reason I like to listen to it occasionally is because of nostalgia.  Same thing with Adlib vs MT-32... The MT-32 is leaps and bounds better than Adlib, but I still like some Adlib songs over the MT-32.  I suppose I should not have taken the defensive side of things, and after reading your second post, the first one doesn't insult.  

[Alistair]

Well, I know full well I have a tendency to be an asshole (just view some of my awful older posts, about mid 2004 and earlier, or better yet don't), so I'm sorry if I caused offence. I just have a Yamaha keyboard that sounds about as good as the Technics and I don't like it- I also have an AWE32 which I like for nostalgia, but I admit it sounds crap

Hell, I don't even like the SC-55 that much.

- Alistair

[jbltecnicspro]

Well, I know full well I have a tendency to be an asshole

No worries - I too, am an asshole  Though, I don't try to be, I usually say the wrong things at the wrong time, even if they're justifiable...