Good high-patch number synths?

[Alistair]

Hey guys,

For a while now I've noticed something. The extreme lack of synths with good patch numbers- that're cheap anyway.

And yes, I know, there's lots of good synths with low default patch numbers that are expandable- but it seems every expansion card costs about 150 US bucks! That's crazy.

Nothing seems to rival the Roland SC-8820/8850's 1640 patches, but what comes close?

I only know of the Yamaha high end MU's, the MU-128/1000/2000's with over 1100, the Roland JV-1080 with over 1000, the Korg NS5R with over 1000 and also the Fantom XR with also over 1000.

Basically, I want to buy a synth for myself sometime and want something I don't have to keep forking money on, especially if (like say a XV-5080) I've just paid upwards of 500 bucks for it.

- Alistair

[Cloudschatze]

You might consider the number of built-in waveforms, rather than patches. After all, with a synthesizer, the theoretical number of patches can be very, very high, depending on your creativity. Since PCM waveforms tend to be the ROMpler building-blocks, the more the merrier.

Additionally, sample-playback capabilities allow for open-ended possibilities. Heck, you could record the MT-32's output and create multi-partial patches. And on, and on.

For sheer number of patches though, a DX or TX7 might be just your thing.

[Alistair]

Keeping in mind, I don't want a FM Synth, nor do I really want to create my own patches. Although sampling can be OK.

 - Alistair

[Cloudschatze]

This may interest you, with regard to sampling...

Of course, many people became familiar with our (sampling) work through the hardware products like the Sound Canvas, the 1080s and Expansion Boards, but few heard the original 'hi-res' versions we created on the Archive and Project series CD-ROMs.

So there you go. With these libraries, you too can create an original Super-SoundCanvas.

[shad0wfax]

I doubt that the number of patches (presets) is the main point to look at in a synth. As Eric says, the number of waveforms is more representative of a synth's capabilities. Also the size of the rom memory. For instance, the NS5R has more presets than the Fantom, but it has around 500 different waveforms, whereas the Fantom has got over 1200. Also, while the NS5R has got 12Mb of sample rom, the Fantom (unexpanded) has 128Mb (more than 10 times the korg). The number of preset patches utimately depends on the manufacturer's will and marketing trends, because it's very easy to create lots of patches using relatively few waveforms and rom memory.

On the other hand, I think that rom expansion cards are not cheap, of course, but they aren't also that expensive, nor its price is crazy. You've got to consider, for instance, that in a single SRX expansion card you've got 64Mb of sample rom (as much memory as the entire XV-5080!!), and those boards usually have got very good waveforms and presets, often better than the presets on the unexpanded synth. On a totally expanded Fantom XR (6 SRX slots), you can have around 2000 preset patches, which is not an amazingly high number), but 512Mb of sample rom and thousands of high quality waveforms.

[Alistair]

I think 2000 IS an amazingly high number.

And I agree. But it's just not cheap to basically pay synth prices for a little card.

I'm nto quite sure what the difference between a patch and a waveform is- clarification please?

- Alistair

[Cloudschatze]

Definitions by Roland:

Waveform
In a synth or sampler, the raw material from which a patch is constructed. A waveform is one or more samples of an instrument or other type of sound. Each tone or partial in a patch plays a waveform, as selected by the tone's or partial's wave generator.

Patch
In a synth, a set of tones -- or partials in pre-JV/XP-Series synths -- along with parameters that determine their behavior. In the XV 5080, a multi-partial patch can contains up to 88 partials.

Partial
In the XV Series, a collection of up to four samples mapped to an area on the keyboard. Each partial contains several components that play and shape its samples. These are the SMT (Sample Mix Table), TVF (time variant filter), TVA (time variant amplifier), envelope and LFO. In pre-JV/XP-Series synths, the basic building block of a patch. A partial contains several components that play and shape a waveform.

[Alistair]

So, isn't the usefulness of waveforms to make patches? I question my ability to do so.

I really just want to use patches..

- Alistair

[shad0wfax]

Yes, but patches can be built upon different waveforms combined in multiple ways, so the more number of waveforms the more richness and variety of sounds (patches).

For example, if I'm not wrong, the sound canvas uses the same waveform for nearly all acoustic piano patches (including honky-tonk), whereas the Fantom XR uses 4 stereo waveforms (8 single waveforms, then) to build each acoustic piano patch. The Fantom has 16 different acoustic piano waveforms (most of them stereo, and some of them 88-key sampled -each piano key is independently sampled-) to build acoustic piano patches.

[Alistair]

Ahh.. fascinating! Thanks a lot, guys. I really appreciate your 'hands-on' styles of explanation.

- Alistair

[Alistair]

Reviving this thread.. Can anyone help me with my original goal? Now that Shadowfax/Cloudschatze have explained new terms to me, anything with over 1000 patches (combs, waveforms whatever) and any good would be appreciated.

Regards,
- Alistair

[Dustin]

I can't say that I've seen many synths lately that have 1000+ patches, except the SC-8850/8820.



I think you'll find that sampling will produce the desired results. You can sample your existing modules, then layer them to produce your own custom patch. In a way, your using your modules as "partials" to make up your sound.


In any case, I realize you've never been interested in the prospect of creating your own patches. However, it really is not difficult at all. It might seem a bit intimidating, but once you try to mold a few simple patches, you pick up on it fairly quickly. When you think about it, to use just the presets of a synthesizer all the time defeats much of it's intended purpose. It's purpose was to give the user the ability to construct his/her own sounds to suit that individual's specific musical needs. With the Sound Canvas modules, you are somewhat stuck with the sounds you have, with little room for modifacation. With a synthesizer like the MT-32, you can easily create your own custom patches. That said, they are pretty remarkable sounding. Also, a FM synth can produce sounds of remarkable warmth and character such as Yamaha's DX-7. It's not like an Adlib sound card.


Like Eric said, always observe how many waveforms a synth has opposed to how many patches it has.



Keep us posted A, I'd be very interested to see what you end up buying