Advanced Sound Canvas units (SC-88pro and up) really worth it?

[jbltecnicspro]

I've been doing some Ebay searching recently, just to see what the prices of our beloved Sound Canvas units have become, and I must say that I'm shocked!  Since when is an SC-8850 really worth $654 (with shipping costs)?  I used to want one of these things, but I don't know if I'll ever spend that much money on something that I'm only marginally impressed with to begin with.  Don't get me wrong - it's not that SC-8850s are BAD, it's just that I don't know if I can justify coughing up that much money for one when different gear goes for cheaper (Roland JV modules, XV modules, Kurzweil ME-1, Korg Modules, etc).  Which brings me to the question - why are Sound Canvases going for SO much?  There are lots of other modules out there that sound just as good, or better than the SC-8850.  Is there some "special" value to the unit that I'm not seeing?  Was it used by famous musicians and is now a collector's item?  Could someone convince me that it's worth over $600? 

Also, I think I have a theory to those insane prices, but I have to know one thing first - do Japanese Auction sites have them for cheaper?

[Alistair]

I've been doing some Ebay searching recently, just to see what the prices of our beloved Sound Canvas units have become, and I must say that I'm shocked!  Since when is an SC-8850 really worth $654 (with shipping costs)?  I used to want one of these things, but I don't know if I'll ever spend that much money on something that I'm only marginally impressed with to begin with.  Don't get me wrong - it's not that SC-8850s are BAD, it's just that I don't know if I can justify coughing up that much money for one when different gear goes for cheaper (Roland JV modules, XV modules, Kurzweil ME-1, Korg Modules, etc).  Which brings me to the question - why are Sound Canvases going for SO much?  There are lots of other modules out there that sound just as good, or better than the SC-8850.  Is there some "special" value to the unit that I'm not seeing?  Was it used by famous musicians and is now a collector's item?  Could someone convince me that it's worth over $600? 

Let's put it this way, I paid about a thousand US dollars for an 8850, back in.. 2002 or 3. I still think a grand's a fair price.

It without a doubt is the best sound module I've ever heard. I personally think it beats the Fantom XR, and certainly any Yamaha module I've ever heard.

Why? Diversity of sounds. Sure, you may loathe the default Strings timbre, but since there's about 50 variation tones, you're bound to find something you like.

There are only a handful of GM patches I could say don't have a variation that is probably good enough for my liking- but that's usual 'hard to emulate' sounds- drums, guitars, pianos etc. But I think the 8850 does those reasonably well too.


I don't think anyone who hasn't owned a higher Roland SC (88Pro and up) can fully appreciate how big the quality jump is from the 88 to the 88Pro and beyond. I really don't. The SC-88 sounds good, but really, we're talking a different ball game.


As for other modules- possibly a successor to the 8850- and the only reason I can't say this with certainty is because I've hardly heard Sierra recordings from it- is the Roland XV-5080. I like it far better than say the Fantom XR as well, and it seems to have really good sounding timbres, layered sound which the 8850's 22 MB of sample rom can't quite replicate.



Anyway. I'd keep checking eBay for all the variants, SC-8820, SC-8850, SCD-70, and then the XV's, JV's etc.

Incidentally, all the JV recordings I've heard sound like some SC-55 relative, maybe slightly better.

Also, keep in mind I'm talking about Sierra purposes here, not necessarily real sounding instruments (although I care about that) or necessarily the same intentiosn you're looking at a module for.

Either way, I think 650 US dollars for an 8850 is still a great deal- but I also think you could find a better deal in the next 3-6 months on eBay, probably next month even.

In fact: http://cgi.ebay.com/ROLAND-SC-8850-Sound-Canvas-Professional-Module-NR_W0QQitemZ300080031117QQihZ020QQcategoryZ64386QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

- Alistair

[shad0wfax]

Well, a personal opinion is always a personal opinion, and now you've known Alistair's, I'm going to put my two cents. Anyway, you're always the best judge of your own interests, needs and tastes. So don't let anyone decide what's the best for you!

Having said that, let's begin. I used to have (and now still have) quite a lot of synth stuff. I use to grab midi gear when I feel it's a good deal; usually I keep it for a while testing it, and if I really like it I keep it, but many times I finally sell it. On the other hand, I've been playing synths and the piano since late 80s (nearly 20 years... damn, how old I am!), so I've got my ears quite well trained to make a judgement about sound quality. Another interesting fact is the following: in most professional recording studios you'll find some JVs, XVs or Fantoms, but you'll hardly see any sound canvases.

Among other synths and modules, I've had Yamahas (PSR-12, PSR-48, CBX-T3, DB50XG, MU-15, MU-80, MU-100, MU-100R, Motif Rack...), Korgs (two NS5Rs), Casios (CZ-230S), and, of course (my favourites) Rolands (MT-32 rev 0 and 1, CM-32L, CM-64, CM-500, MT-100, U-220, XV-2020, XV-5050, Fantom XR...). Talking about sound canvases, I've had the SC-55 in many flavours (SC-55, SC-155, CM-300, CM-500, XP-10...), and also the SC-88Pro ST, the SC-880 and (yes, for a week) a SC-8850. My honest opinion is that sound canvases are overpriced. Don't take me wrong, they are all good synths, but considering the alternatives, as long as GS compatibility is not mandatory for you, you can get more interesting stuff for the money.

Regarding specifically the SC-8850, I must admit that I only had it for a short time, but in my testings I must admit I was expenting more from it (perhaps the problem was I already had the Fantom). This is the reason I sold it only a week after I got it. It didn't sounded bad at all; in fact it sounded very good indeed, but not as good as a several hundred $ equipment should sound, and it was not expandable. For the money, as long as you're interested in composing and not in gaming, and as long as you don't care for GS compatibility, you can get a XV-2020 for less or a XV-5050 for more or less the same, or even less. Neither of them sound worse than the SC-8850 and they are expandable, and the XV-5050 has digital outs. The only drawback is they're both 64-voice poly.

And if you want even more sound quality, you can try to get a Fantom or a Motif Rack. Both ore not one, but two steps beyond any sound canvas model. I know because I've had all three (Motif, SC-8850 and Fantom -this is the only one I'm still keeping-). You can only realize when you've got one of these and know it quite well. The superiority in sound quality is evident even when comparing to the XV-2020 or the XV-5050, and not to mention the expansion capabilities, the incredible effects section, and the flexibility of programming, very limited in the SC's. I've only listened to 2 synths which can comptete with the Fantom: the Mofif/Motif ES and the XV-5080. Maybe the Korg Triton and the Kurzweil K2600R are also as excellent, but I cannot confirm this because I haven't listened to them. The XV-2020 and the XV-5050, even considering they've got the same waveforms as the XV-5080, don't sound as good because of poorer D/A converters and effects sections.

As a final comment, I'd like to point out that there's a synth module that it's frequently overlooked and which is a goldmine in terms of value for money: the JV-1010. You've got all the sounds from the JV-2080, all the sounds of the "Session" expansion board, and there's still room for another expansion card. And best of all, they are incredibly cheap those days, and you can get one for $200-250. Obviously, it doesn't sound as good as the "real" 2080, due to D/A converters and effects section, and you get only 1 free slot instead of 8, but it's still a winner for a thight budget.

[Ari]

Maybe you should consider an SC-88Pro instead of an SC-8850. They still go for about half the price of an 8850, and are supposed to be quite good.

[Tom]

I don't exactly 'regret' my purchase of the SC-8850, but I'm not thrilled with it, either.  I rarely use it.  My primary purpose for buying it was for a backup to what I thought would be an identical sound quality as the SC-8820 -- it's not.  IN MY OPINION, the 8820 -- which  cost far less than the 8850 -- has MANY sounds that are substantially better on the 8820.  I think everything from Roland is overpriced, too. 

I also love a lot of the sounds on my cheap SW60XG sound card.  So much so that I chose to include its use quite extensively (INSTEAD of the SC-8850) when putting together both the QFG2VGA and AL EMMO soundtracks.  I think I got the SW60XG, brand new in the box, for about $50.  I would love to work with a Fantom XR or related synth and would readily trade my SC-8850 for a Fantom series synth -- but I wouldn't trade anything for my SC-8820.  I think, as Ari mentions, the lesser cost of a SC-88Pro would be a far better option than an SC-8850...in sound quality, too.  (I've not heard it, but I'm told the 88Pro is closer to an 8820 than an 8850.)

In my experience, you never really know how a synth performs until you work with it.  You get accustomed to composing with certain sound characteristics ... and that takes time.  Playing certain riffs on one synth doesn't necessarily work with another, and so forth.

[BlueMax]

Yep - an SC-88, pro or 8820 is plenty, especially if you can get it cheap!  Under $200 you got yourself a pretty good deal.

The sounds are much better and is at least double the polyphony and twice the MIDI channels available if you're a composer.

[jbltecnicspro]

Thanks for the replies.  I'm interested in the JV-1010 though, because I am definately on a budget.  Does the JV-1010 have a Roland TR-909 drumset included in it?  Over the past few weeks, I've grown really fond of the SC-55's TR-808 drum kit, and I frequently use it for dance music and such.  I'm *not* interested in Sierra games, so pretty much anything will go.  I have been keeping a keen eye for the Kurzweil ME-1 Sound Module.  Even though it only has 32 voices of polyphony, the instrument set is supposed to be of a very high quality.  It has 16MB of Wave ROM and only 256 patches.  As it stands, I've already heard its piano sounds (which are amazing) and some of its synth lead sounds (are also nice sounding).  At full MSRP it costs $400 - on Ebay, I see it go four around $180, so it might be a steal. 

[Cloudschatze]

Also, I think I have a theory to those insane prices...

Hmm. Does it begin with "J" and end with "apanese sellers?"

They're really pushing it with some of the prices they're trying to get over here.

[shad0wfax]

Does the JV-1010 have a Roland TR-909 drumset included in it?

According to the manual, there's no a specific 909 drumset, although there are drumkits with lots of analog drum samples taken from the 606, 707, 808, 909 and the like.

Code:

I have been keeping a keen eye for the Kurzweil ME-1 Sound Module.

Kurzweil has a great reputation as a high quality synth company, so they'd hardly make a dull sound module. For less than $200 is a great deal, although in terms of specs and expandability I believe that the JV-1010 is superior.

[Alistair]

JV-1010- put it this way. I've heard more advanced JV's play Sierra Gm tunes, and they sound like a slightly improved SC-55. Admittedly, that's GM, but that doesn't bode well as far as I'm concerned.

- Alistair

[Tom]

I would add...you shouldn't evaluate a synth's capabilities based on how well it sounds playing Sierra MIDI music that was composed for either a MT-32 or SC-55.  Unless, that's the only reason you were buying one.

Since this website has been around, I've watched the focus gradually shift over the years from those who buy MIDI gear in order to play game music, to what seems to be more of an interest in MIDI gear for composing -- and less interest in game music capabilties.  I think more and more muisicians are here now than in the past, and the interest for MIDI equipment has shifted to accommodate the needs of musicians more so than gamers.

It's great when when a sound device works well for both composing and game playing.  But I'm thinking that most people who are going to spend hundreds of dollars on music equipment these days are less interested in game support, since most (if not all) soundtracks are now digital.

[BlueMax]

Tom's got a huge point. 

If you're after GENERAL MIDI for playing games, avoid the JV1010 which is actually quite inferior to the simple SC-55.  Its power lies in other areas, not GM.

I've noticed some ebay sellers selling those Kursweil GM modules....  I wonder how good they are?

I'd just love to have my SC-88 back. 

[Maxime]

I'm exactly in the same situation than you, jbltechnicspro

For the last months, I've been doing many searches on eBay to look for a SC-8850, and I must admit that I'm always quite reluctant to click on the Buy it Now! button, to get this famous thing without having to wonder about winning an auction (I tried several times, and I lost each time )

Despite all the good words Alistair said on this topic (and some others) about this unit, I still don't really know if buying such a module for $600 would be reasonable. Even more if you consider that this price doesn't include the $50 shipping costs and the 110V to 220V I'd need to buy as well to use it in France

Sure, it seems to be a very good unit... but I wonder if buying a SC-88 Pro with an additional USB MIDI interface (if needed) would not be a better deal...

On eBay, I also see several other modules, such as a quite unknown Yamaha MU-128 (and always from these expensive Japanese sellers...), which looks very similar to the SC-8850 (USB connection, RCA jacks, front-panel knobs...) but I don't know anything about this one...

I first wanted to go for a JV-line synth (such as the little but powerful JV-1010) but it's lacking GS drumkits, and I need these nice Roland Power/Room/TR-808 drumkits

I would love to have a GM & GS Roland synth... something more powerful than the SC-55 (24/32 note polyphony is really weak for me), preferably with front-panel knobs (I would feel something is missing if I had a 8820, for example), but I also have the impression that good bargain prices on Roland 88 synths are quite rare...

[Alistair]

I take the GM point, but I said that I've yet to hear the other JV areas. Maybe someone could post a sample?

As for the ancient "SC-88Pro v SC-8820/8850" debate, I think it's a no-brainer. The 8850's buttosn are a LOT simpler to use, and looks prettier.
Seriously, the reason I wanted an advanced Sound Canvas module was for all its' 4 bit sounds and new, cool sounds- Jazz Scat, Rich Choir, et al. The 88Pro, while being an excellent module, lacks the new timbres which made the 8850 such a revolution. And when we're talking a possible 100 dollar price differential, that shouldn't be enough to deter you.

As for power cables, Maxime- suck it up. Really, I've bought so many damn cables and such (and I live in Australia, where they don't have much of this, or if they do, it's really pricey) that I have zero sympathy for someone who can't find adaptor/cable X. We all have to deal with that stuff if we want to get a bargain deal on eBay, and we know about audio, so we have the ability to find them.

- Alistair

[jbltecnicspro]

Maxime, I feel you.  The problem that I have with the 8850 is not only its price, but the fact that I really don't know what I'm getting for my money.  I mean sure, I can listen to some of Tom's work that has some 8850 usage and Alistair's conversions with his 8850, but I really don't care how much the unit can "spice up" older games.  I want to hear it in its own element.  I've spent lots of time searching the web for mp3 examples of the 8850, and the few ones that are out there are impressive, I admit - especially the guitars, pianos, and flutes.  But other than that, I can't say that I've actually heard lots of musical genres performed on the module.  The most I've heard of an 8850 is in orchestral works and RPG-esque toons.  While the machine does sound nice, I'm not sure its quality exactly matches its price.  Basically, from what I've heard, I think it sounds nice, but I want to hear it do some techno tunes, dance tracks, pop-style music, R&B, New Age.  To be honest, I've never heard its TR-909 kit, nor its other drum kits, or some of its pads.

Which brings me to this...  Could someone with an 8850 give a musical example of what this baby's instruments sound like individually?  I'm not looking for earth-shattering chord progressions, nor soul-shaking music - just a three-chord example of an 8850 synth pad, and maybe some cheesy drum track with some of its more "special" drum kits.  Sure, the 8850 has 1600+ patches, but the music in the adventure games probably uses like 100 unique patches?

Other than that, I'm seriously looking into getting the Kurzweil ME-1 when I see a good price for it on Ebay.  I've been listening to the demos of the PC-2 keyboard, which is the ROM equivalent of the ME-1, and I must say that I'm really impressed!  The waveforms are of surprisingly high quality!

ftp://ftp.kurzweilmusicsystems.com/pub/Kurzweil/Audio_Demos/MP3/PC2/ELEMENTS.mp3

[MichalN]

I've done a few quick recordings of my SC-8820. These are some of the demo MIDI files shipped with the unit. Does this help?

http://pages.prodigy.net/michaln/sc8820/dance.mp3
http://pages.prodigy.net/michaln/sc8820/fusion.mp3
http://pages.prodigy.net/michaln/sc8820/jazz.mp3
http://pages.prodigy.net/michaln/sc8820/r_blues.mp3
http://pages.prodigy.net/michaln/sc8820/sfx.mp3

Mind you, the 8850 has slightly different instruments, but someone who owns both units would have to tell you how different they really are. FYI, I wanted the 8820 because I can hook it up to my laptop directly through USB. I don't need any additional hardware (just drivers from Roland) and I don't even need the 8820's power supply. A good thing, too, since the Roland has US power supply and I'm in Europe   (not that a replacement 9VDC adapter is expensive or difficult to get)

Note: The noise in the recordings is caused by my crappy cables, not the synth.

[Tom]

I mean sure, I can listen to some of Tom's work that has some 8850

Actually, no, you can't.  I don't think I've uploaded anything substantial using the 8850, other than one song from the Al Emmo soundtrack.  I don't care for the 8850 strings or percussion (both of which I use a lot.)  And even with that 4-element piano and other suposedly enhanced sounds, overall I much prefer the 8820 and use it almost exclusively along with the MT-32 and SW60XG.

Demo songs are great, but they still don't give you a feel for how a synth will perform for you.  My SoundBlaster AWE32's demo songs sound really good, but....   When good musicians, who know all the best parts of a sound device -- and know how to exploit them to create demos, you usually get fantastic sounding music.  It's difficult with older MIDI gear, but the best way to check out how a device works is to go to your local music store and actually use it...or at least, get a live demonstration.

In my opinion, there isn't any sound on the 8850 that sounds better than a sound on the 8820...which would probably also apply to the 88Pro.  I would go further and say that many of the sounds on the 8850 aren't as good as the 8820, even though some 8850 sounds use four elements instead of two.

[Alistair]

Well, the 8820 was released and revised after the final 8850 release

I have to say though, the headaches of the no panel display 8820 would make it pretty annoying to use. I love my LCD panel. Bit silly for me to get an 8820, make a track playback for 8850 and then play it back on the 8820 though. To me, the sound difference between the modules is minimal. I'd need some good side by side recordings to hear specific instrument differences.

I guess that's why I heavily use my MU100R, for those times wher I'm basically at a disadvantage to Tom with his 8820, like pianos. I combine the 8850's poor(er) sound with elements of a Yamaha sound to give it a bit more realism, which I think the MU100R has bucketloads of, when it's a patch the module does well of course (it's 30% gold, 70% rubbish as fa as 'real' instrument sounds goes).

- Alistair

[Tom]

That IS a BIG plus of the 8850 -- it's very easy to use without having to rely on SysEx or external programs to change settings.  Though with programs like GS Edit, it's pretty easy to control the SC-8820, too.

[shad0wfax]

Though with programs like GS Edit, it's pretty easy to control the SC-8820, too

That's a good point, software editors. I virtually never use any buttons of the Fantom's frontpanel, because the soft editor is so much easy, powerful and comfortable to use. You can do with a couple of clicks what it would need endless flippings of menu pages and button presses in a tiny LCD screen. Roland's editors for XV and Fantom synths are excellent; you can see nearly all the parameters at a glance and tweak them as needed. That's a huge advantage over bad programmed editors such as Yamaha Motif's. In fact, despite the motif sounded extremely good, it's poor editor made using it a real nightmare, and that was one of the main reasons for why I finally decided to sell it.