8850 better electric guitars?

[Trisk]

Hey folks!

I'm a longtime lurker, first time poster...I've used this forum alot to help in getting sound hardware to run old DOS games.

So here's the thing; I've always been frustrated with how poor the Overdriven/Distortion guitars always sound on General Midi synths. I was very excited upon hearing that the 8850/88pro had an actual distortion effect that could be run, and clips of the guitars that use it sound phenomenal. So I envisioned that Roland would have been smart enough to actually USE this effect on their piss-poor GM guitar patches. Ha ha. Silly me.

From the looks of it, the SD80 and SD90 actually DO use the distortion efx on GM if properly set up, but my question is; is there any possible way to get the 8850 to use one of its GOOD guitar patches with distortion efx for the overdriven/distortion guitar in GM? If it did that one thing I would be SOOOO happy with its sound in my games...

Thanks,
Ben

[shad0wfax]

The problem is that although you could change the settings in order to use your own MFX configuration, this won't affect games, because unless you could change the midi information transmitted from the computer to your 8850, most probably it will include a midi GM/GS reset message that will revert to the standard settings. Of course, you could instead make your own compositions using the distorted guitars

[Alistair]

The only way to do it would be to set up the EFX via the front panel, set it to EFX ON and the settings you like, i.e. Distortion or Overdrive.
Then you can enable it on any individual MIDI channel you choose.
Note that only one EFX can be enabled at a given time, that is, not Overdrive and Distortion both (although I think there is a setting that combines both anyway?).

IMO, I personally don't enjoy hearing the default effects in-game, but they can sound alright outside.

- Alistair

[Trisk]

Rats, that's kinda what I figured, but I thought I'd ask, cause if there was a way, it'd be known about here.

So it took Roland years to actually apply any enhancements to the GM section of the Sound Canvas, keeping it pretty much the same from the SC-88 on until the SD-90. Well, there's an SD-90 in my future, then. From reviews I've read of it, you can set its GM mode to, among other settings, "enhanced" which uses efx and better patches at the expense of some uniformity and compatibility.

I'm a guitar player, so getting better distortion sounds in GM is something of an obsession of mine. 

Thanks,
Ben

[Trisk]

Just as a follow up, for kicks and giggles not that any of you care, Alistair, I did as you suggested and turned the EFX on for the appropriate channels in a couple games that use a lot of guitars, including Shadow Warrior. The result is very nice, although I had to tweek the EFX gain as it tended to make the guitar part too soft. The guitars suddenly pop with realism, although it tends to point out that the composers were not guitar players and had no idea how to program distorted guitar chords, which by and large should be perfect fifths to sound correct. I hear alot of octaves, or even just one single note, which is pretty poor. Still, it is way better than the stock GM patches!

However, there is a bad side to it...as often as not the composer didn't keep the guitars on the same channel from song to song. So the result is when a new song starts playing, the instrument that ends up on what was once the guitar channel has distortion on it, and the effect isn't pretty. Sigh. That means you have to go and turn EFX off and on on the different channels every time the game changes songs on you, which is usually gonna be more of a pain than it is worth, especially for Sierra games which change songs frequently.

OK, so that said, I got an SD-90, and WOW! Roland FINALLY upgraded their GM patches! Even without EFX, it sounds brilliant! For anybody looking to make old games sound better than they were even programmed for, this is IT! Much better than the 8850, no contest.

And it gets even better. You can turn EFX on only on THREE channels total (rats,) but it STAYS on for whatever instruments play on those channels until it is either manually changed by you, or the SD-90 is rebooted. But each and every GM2 instrument has been set up with its OWN EFX PARAMETERS by Roland, so if Channel 1 is the distortion guitar on song 1 and then plays a funky slap bass on song 2, the EFX automatically change from distortion to GREAT sounding enhancements like a phaser for slap bass!

This means that you can just sit back and enjoy incredibly enhanced GM game soundtracks without having to reset the darn EFX every time there is a song change!

IMO, Roland finally got the message after years of lame reiterations, and actually improved the Sound Canvas lines' basic GM sounds substantially in an attempt to compete in a market that had moved beyond it. It was too little too late though, as the era of cheaper, vastly superior software synthesizers was already upon us; computers had become powerful enough to drive complex synth engines and multitimbral scores without dedicated hardware.

And on the videogame side of the business, since only the rich few could afford a Sound Canvas to hear game soundtracks as they were MEANT to sound, the push was away from the everyman's OPL2 "lowest common denomenator music" into the realm of redbook and yellowbook music for games. While .mp3 soundtracks are great, they are also dreadfully static. You can't get something like iMuse going to any great effect with prerecorded soundtracks (Though Lucasarts DID try.)

I often wonder what computer music would be like if Roland had slashed the prices of the Sound Canvas to the point where your average gamer could afford one?

Them's my musings right now. Anyway, SD-90 = my new favorite by a landslide.

Ben

[Salient]

OK, so that said, I got an SD-90, and WOW! Roland FINALLY upgraded their GM patches! Even without EFX, it sounds brilliant! For anybody looking to make old games sound better than they were even programmed for, this is IT! Much better than the 8850, no contest.

Could you record some of the 'obvious' game tracks on the SD-90? Tracks like Doom EM1M, Descent Level 1, Duke 3D Intro and Duke 3D - Aliens? With the basic settings, not extra effects applied.
I would love to hear those on this device.

[Alistair]

Trisk : I care, thanks for posting back

SD-90's sure seem expensive though, any ideas?

- Alistair

[Trisk]

Sure, I'd be glad to do some recordings!

Alistair, I'm sorry I'm not sure what you mean? Do you mean about the cost? Well, I bought mine from eBay at 309 US, which I think is a pretty good deal considering all it's got on it...although it's the only one I've seen on there since I started looking for one an admittedly short time ago, so I probably have less of an idea than you do.

Salient, it's not QUITE that simple. The SD-90 actually has four different GM2 modes, which I'll paraphrase from the manual: Classic, which is the basic "General Midi compatible" setup, Contemporary, which updates the sounds to better quality and realism (that's the default when you power it on,) Solo, which further enhances realism of the instruments and balances them in a way to help them cut through the mix, and finally Enhanced, which uses EFX to boost realism to over the top levels of Strong-Bad-Quality cool.

(This is all talking about the GM2 mode, BTW...GS mode again tends toward compatibility with SC-88/55 at the expense of quality, so I don't think it's worth demoing, you've heard that stuff before.)

Now interestingly, all midi channels can be put on ANY of the first three settings, the only limit is on setting channels to Enhanced, which can only be on three channels.

So I guess if you want the vanilla sound, that would be leaving all channels on the default, Contemporary...but I'm going to record at least a couple tracks with EFX on because it sounds just so amazing. I also note that I ALWAYS set the drums to Solo, as it makes them absolutely POP out of the box. I think they're some of the best drums I've heard coming out of a synthesizer, even compared to top of the line modern day software synths! So do you want the recordings with the Contemporary drums or the Solo drums?

...sigh...why is it I am always so verbose? I am physically incapable of being terse, it would kill me. So sorry this is long, I'm just trying to let you know what I've learned about this baby. :p

laters guys,
Ben

[Salient]

I can't wait to hear the examples.

Could you also record one or two tracks in GS mode? I would like to hear how close it is to the original sc88(pro) or even sc-55.

[Trisk]

OK, I'm still working on recording a bunch of "A - B" comparisons for some different tracks. Here's a sneak preview though to tide you over 'till I can get a whole mess of songs done.

The song is from Descent, and is from level 18 of that game.

First up is a recording of the song on a Roland Sound Canvas SC-55. It sounds excellent, as usual for a Roland synth. However, notice there is a typical "General MIDI-ness" to the sound, though the song is excellently sequenced. Pay special attention to the track at 1:21 and compare to the SD-90.

http://www.prodigal-game.com/music/descentlevel18sc-55.mp3

Next up is the same song recorded on the Edirol Studio Canvas SD-90. To my ears this sounds AMAZING. This is the kind of stuff you'd hear on a dance/techno CD from a professional artist. I hear nothing that clues me in to this being a General MIDI track anywhere in the whole song! Compare especially at 1:21 to the SC-55.

http://www.prodigal-game.com/music/descentlevel18sd-90.mp3

Tell me what ya think! I'll have more later, but I wanted to get SOMETHING up since it is taking me a while.

Laters!
Ben

[Salient]

That sounds indeed very cool!
Thanks for the effort already, can't wait to hear more

[BlueMax]

I had my hands on an SD-90 3 years ago - I shoulda' hung on to it!