Sound Canvas and Windows' soft synthesizer

[shad0wfax]

Hi,

I've just read in an old message that windows' built-in soft synthesizer uses exactly the same rom samples than a Roland Sound Canvas (the SC-55, I guess). I've never used the windows synth (the only soft synth I've used sometimes is Yamaha's SY-50XG), but being just curioius I've tested it with some GS midi files. Results were no good at all (sound quality was rather poor, especially high frequences, despite the fact I use a Terratec DMX fire soundcard), and I was wondering if a real sound canvas has the same sound (I guess that a real SC-55 sounds beter). An MT-32 or a CM-64 sounds far better than windows' synth, so I would agree some comments about it and about the "closeness" between the Roland Sound Canvas and Windows's softsynth.

[HondaSiR]

A real Sound Canvas will definitely sound better than a softsynth. Sometime ago, before I purchased my SCB-55, I downloaded a sample program of Roland's software synthesizer. Although the samples were good, my SCB-55 offered clearer, crispier and more realistic sounding instruments. However I haven't tried to listen to the built-in synthesizer of Windows and can make no comment regarding it.

[Ari]

Sound samples are definitely not the same. It's not just a matter of quality. The Orchestra drumkit in the Microsoft GS softsynth, for instance, sounds quite different than the SC-55's same thing goes for the nylon guitar, and lots of other instruments.
In addition, there are no reverb and chorus effects in the GS softsynth, which makes it sound rahter poor.

[Alistair]

I'm sure we've had this discussion before.

I used the 'softsynth' (I dislike the term, as it's really a sort of crappy soundfont) once. Back when I got my first P4 in 2000. I remember burning a lot of CD's with QuestStudios MIDI's recorded from it.

It sounds to me not 'bad', but.. 'raw'. Like 22 KHz digital audio quality, but stereo.

To answer your actual question, I think there's very little similarities between the Microsoft sound and the Sound Canvas (55). Especially because you can use reverb with the SC.. you can't actually improve on what's heard in the game with the Microsoft sound. Which means it's virtually useless.

VSC (Virtual Sound Canvas softsynth) gives a much closer guide to what the SC-55 sounds like. Very close to the SC-55 in many ways.

- Alistair

[shad0wfax]

Thanks a lot for your comments.

I realized that windows' "softsynth" had no reverb nor chorus, but even so, audio quality was poor (as if the samples were played at 22khz).

Yamaha's soft synth is a lot better, because years ago I had a DB50XG board and the soft synth has almost the same sound quality, at least on my Terratec soundcard (although it's a bit more noisy and higher frequencies are slightly worse than the original hardware). The problem is that I found this softsynth quite useless for making music as long there is not a 24 bit/ASIO version. But for playing games is OK. I haven't tested the Virtual Sound Canvas. Is it good or really comparable to the "real thing"? I haven't got any Sound Canvas to compare (only my CM-32L, a RD-170 stage piano and, since the last week, a XV-2020 ).

Regards,
Shadowfax

[Laust]

I'm guessing the Windows Soft Synth is optimized for speed rather than quality. I've heard it provide real-time playback even on Pentium-class machines. I'm not sure if the VSC or Yamaha's soft synth can handle that without stuttering.

[Ari]

The VSC can't. it needs a delay of about 450 milisecs to playback properly on a P-III machine. The Yamaha softsynth has virtually no delay at all, and it plays well enough.

[shad0wfax]

I've just taken a look to the virtual sound canvas. It sounds pretty well, certainly a lot better than windows' synth, and I guess that it sounds close to the real thing. Nevertheless, there is still a bit of noise and hiss, especially in higher frequences, a point that it seems common to all softsynths (yamaha's also).

In my Athlon XP 2800+ I get a 60ms latence with only a 4-5% CPU usage. Nevertheless, I find the same problems in all softsynths that make them of little use for me when conposing music: I usually record my midi sequences in realtime, and I cannot get it right if there is latence, even of only 50ms or so. If there were a 24bit/ASIO version, with virtually no latence at all, it would be OK, but there isn't (as with yamaha's).

Otherwise, it's OK for playing music.

[Alistair]

VSC is a heavy lagger, in my experiences. Unless you have a decent P4, don't bother. That said, once you've heard it, and SC-55 digital audio from Sierra games on the web, you'll want a real Sound Canvas. VSC gives you a taste.
For the good Sound Canvas games it keeps pace pretty well. King's Quest VI for example is rather good.
As for hiss, the quality of VSC is entirely dependent on your VSC settings and your sound card quality. It's not much good for recording with, but is good as a temporary SC.

- Alistair

[robertmo]

latencey is configureable!!!
you can choose between 22 and 680ms !!!

[Alistair]

Latency applies to one or the other, I assume.. that is, if you stop VSC taking up all your processor speed, VSC runs as slow as can be (i.e. 22ms).

- Alistair

[Ari]

of course it is, but slower machines cannot handle less than a certain level of latency.

[robertmo]

In my Athlon XP 2800+ I get a 60ms latence with only a 4-5% CPU usage.

I guess your machine can hanndle way lower latency

[Tom]

In my Athlon XP 2800+ I get a 60ms latence with only a 4-5% CPU usage. Nevertheless, I find the same problems in all softsynths that make them of little use for me when conposing music: I usually record my midi sequences in realtime, and I cannot get it right if there is latence, even of only 50ms or so.

Same here.  It's useless trying to lay a live track on top of a recorded track when the timing is off by even a fraction of a second.  Very frustrating!

[shad0wfax]

Yes, I did realize that in the settings section, VSC latency is adjustable (being 22ms the mininum). But I don't know why, 67ms is the lowest latency I can get; if I select a lower value, then the sound "cuts", and it's very unpleasant.

It's not a problem of CPU overload (CPU load, according to windows own cpu-meter, is still very low, even at minimum latency). I've also tried to change the sound buffer of my terratec DMX 6 fire card (it's selectable from 1ms to 15ms), but it doesn't seem to affect the problem. So I cannot get the VCS to be fast enough to use it realtime when sequencing

I know that many of you will think or say "so what's the problem? get a real Sound Canvas!". Well, I would lie if I say that I wouldn't like to have one, but for me it's just not a pr¡ority. In my honest opinion, the CM-32P (or the PCM part of the CM-64) sounds better in general terms than the SC, especially the PCM expansion cards. But the drawback (a great one, that's true) is that there are only a few sounds and there's no GM/GS compatibility. Anyway, when it comes to sound quality, I just turn on my new XV2020

[shad0wfax]

Hey, I simply didn't realize that the VSC package comes also with a DirectX and a VST plug-ins!

After seeing it on edirol's web, I went to the local store. Luckily, they had the software and I could play a little with it. The VST plug-in is amazing! There's simply no noticeable latency, and it sounds slightly better than the stand-alone version (because when using VST -ASIO-  the sample conversion is done at 24 bit resolution, instead of 16). So the sound is a bit brighter and it suffers from less hiss in higher frequencies. So I bought it (only 30 euro; I bet you can't get a SC-88Pro for that).

Now I've got a Virtual Sound Canvas useable for composing Still, I think that the PCM part of the CM-64 sounds better, but you've got 64 presets instead of 900+ and no GS compatibility. Another interesting option is the Korg NS5R. It has the same map as the SC-88 (not Pro) and yamaha XG, plus hundreds of korg's own patches and combis. The overall quality is quite high (not as high as my XV-2020, hehe). I cannot compare it with a real SC-88Pro because I haven't heard one, but it sounds better, in general terms, than VSC.

[Tom]

There's just something about that MT-32/CM-32/CM-64 percussion that can't be beat.  It's very, very natural sounding.  (Sure wish they would have included a gong in there.)  I love all the percussion choices with my SC-8820, but the standard drum kit of the MT-32 is still my favorite.  Yamaha MU (don't know about the MU10) has some pretty spectacular percussion as well.  I remember being blown away when I first heard it.

[Alistair]

There's just something about that MT-32/CM-32/CM-64 percussion that can't be beat. It's very, very natural sounding.

Certain games have great MT-32 percussion.. and some have awful percussion. I can't imagine calling the average drum use in SQ5 good. Games like Willy Beamish, and especially ones like Dr. Brain 1, had amazing MT-32 drums. So realistic. But I've always found the MT-32 drums to be either realistic or unrealistic.

I wonder.. ever mixed (or thought about mixing) MT-32 and SC sounds, Tom? I'm sure I've heard a few pieces where you've done this before.

The Sound Canvas ED percussion matches drum 'hits' better for my money.. something the SC-55 could never do.

- Alistair

[Ari]

AFAIK, it's the same drumkit in all the games, isn't it? it may have been misused in SQ5, but it doesn't mean the drums themselves are bad.
I think Tom was talking about the instruments themselves.

Also, I imagine you're talking about mixing drumkits from different modules or cards, right?

[Alistair]

Well, in the same way that one can send a 'program change' to channel 10 for the SC-55, e.g. 'Acoustic Bs.' for 'Jazz', one can send a program change to change the MT-32 drumkit. At least, that seems to be the case in some Sierra games. None SC-55 support games, of course, but games which were composed for the MT-32 sometiems used quite different drumkits. Willy Beamish had a synth drum, a snare, a 'standard' kit, and various other types of drums, all accessed by different patch or program numbers. I use 'Willy' as an example because it's the soundtrack I've been working with most recently, but other games did this as well.

Also, I imagine you're talking about mixing drumkits from different modules or cards, right?

Yep.. that's what I was alluding to. I'm sure he did it in SQ4, for example. I've done it myself. Though, it ain't easy.

- Alistair