update: 16Aug04

[Ari]

Well, I guess it's my turn to update today.

3 new Betrayal at Krondor themes for those who requested them. I took the liberty of switching the themes' percussion track from STANDARD to ORCHESTRA. With a real Sound Canvas, it sounds a lot better IMO, but other than that, it's totally GM compliant.

Also, Something I've been working on for a couple of days now: A new and improved XG version of the SQ3 Title Theme. Finding an XG equivalent of the MT-32's Doctor Solo patch turned out to be a very frustrating experience. I've also made an Ogg Vorbis version for those of you without XG cards, since the midi file doesn't seem to playback very well on Yamaha's SoftSynth.

I'd really appreciate your feedback on this one. I think it comes really close...

That's all for now.

[Tom]

And to go along with that last update, there's also a General MIDI version of the "Two Guys Commentary" from SQ1 now available.

[HondaSiR]

Ok...here's my take regarding the XG conversion of the Space Quest 3 title theme. The XG put up a good fight, but for me the MT-32 still wins in the hearing department. Better percussion sounds, and better overall feel. The XG just doesn't sound as "playful" as the original. The warm bell and whistle still sounds better on the MT-32, on the XG it sounds pretty synthetic. All I liked about the XG is the "live" feel (I set my WinAmp to Rock mode).

[Ari]

There's no Warm bell in the XG standard. I had to combine the "Digibell" and "Atmosphere" patches to get this close to the MT-32's sound.
I don't presume to achieve a better sound than the MT-32, but I think the XG version surpasses the GS version (No offense, Tom ).

Yes, it does sound very 'synthy' but, I think it's supposed to sound like that.

[HondaSiR]

Sorry Ari, but to me Tom's GS rendition is closer to the MT-32. The XG's warm bell patch (digibell and atmosphere) sounds way too loud and synthy. The MT-32 and GS conversion is soft (not too synthy sounding). And the XG's whistle 2 sound is way too soft, the GS and MT-32 is louder. The XG's drums are also too powerful or loud in my opinion. But all of these can be tweeked out right? The volume and balance of each instrument?

[Ari]

The XG standard has only one Whistle patch (that I'm aware of).
The volume issues can be dealt with quite easily. Since this is a working project of mine, anyway, I appreciate your comments. I'll try and improve.

[Alistair]

I seem to remember Tom converting 'DoctorSolo' to a Saw Wave patch (variation 13?) called 'SequencedSaw'..

And was there a choir in the original version of this file? I don't remember.

I'd better check this one out. I remember when you uploaded the previous one.. it was about 18 months ago!

- Alistair

[Tom]

Ari's taken the tough path.  In my experience, XG was the hardest to convert to because the sound choices are WAY DIFFERENT than the MT-32.  When I first got my SW60XG, and saw all the onboard instruments, I thought it was going to be a breeze.  And it is, with some songs -- but with others, matching sounds is not at all easy.  At least with GS/ED, you're dealing with Roland-based sounds.  With XG, you're on your own; matching XG to the MT-32 is pretty much an impossible task.  Ari's done what I used to do -- combine two or more XG sounds to roughly approximate a MT-32 sound.  But you'll never be able to immitate the MT-32; you can only "translate" a MT-32 song for XG based on XG's available instrument map...which differs greatly from the MT-32.  I like what he's done.

[HondaSiR]

Oh I see, I never saw it that way Tom. I just assumed that both GS and XG had the same GM mapping, just different approaches for extra effects. What a challenge huh (specially the mixing of two or more sounds just to create one Roland sound)? It's a good thing that Ari has the patience to perform those transitions. If I were to do it, I'd probably just stick to the Sound Canvas, knowing now that this is the easier approach. Yamaha XG users in QuestStudios sure are a lucky bunch!  :smt023

[Tom]

I'd kill for an ISA slot!  I really miss using my SW60XG -- a 16-bit ISA card.  But anyway, that's one of the reasons I'm so happy Ari is doing the XG conversions.  That section of this site has been pretty dead since I had to remove the card to make room for my MPU and AWE -- the only two ISA slots I have available, and both being used for MIDI interfaces.  Ari's been kind (brave) enough to pick up the slack in the XG department.

[Ari]

Wow, thanks for all the kind words!   :smt053:

I've only done 2 or 3 XG conversions up until now, but I've really enjoyed doing them. It's quite a challenge, but I enjoy experimenting with all the different sounds, XG has some very unique sounds in it's banks.

If anyone has any requests in the XG department, I'll be glad to give it a try...

[Alistair]

I had a listen earlier.
And ironically, a recording of your old XG file was on one of the CD's I listened to on the way home from Uni today!

The beginning is much improved now. I like the bell. The bass is not a good conversion; and the middle isn't brilliant, though one or two bits are better than the MT sequence.

But the original file- The ending is every bit as good as the MT-32 sequence, quite similar. I liked it better from the main part of the theme onwards! (More than the current recording, that is.)

- Alistair

EDIT: I'm going to take you up on the XG recording.. Hmm. How about a track like.. Police Quest II, "The Revolver"? Should be relatively simple, and I like XG's synth brasses. I find them oh-so-similar to the MT's.

P.S. By the way, Tom, do you use XG much, or have you found it redundant compared to your ED sounds now that you have a 8820?

[Ivar]

I have a question:

Forgive me if I'm missing something completely here but,

Why are we converting for XG at all?

Are there that many people around with only an XG card?
Won't most of those have at least a soundblaster, with which one at least can load a soundfont in order to play in a half decent way.

I'd also guess that people, actually owning an XG card, have to be pretty knowledgeable on midi, and therefore also own Roland MIDI devices...

Can an XG card play GM aswel? (In which case a GM format would suffice)

Ivar

[Ari]

I don't quite understand your question.
There are a lot of XG cards around. most are very cheap, so people with XG cards wouldn't necessarily have Roland devices, which are considerably more expensive.
The XG standard is more popular than the GS standard, I think. There're a lot more XG files on the web than GS files. I don't think it's very popular with users here on this site, but most people don't even have an SC device.

The XG standard is also GM compliant. why do we convert to XG? for the same reason we convert to GS or ED, I suppose.

[Ivar]

Thanks for the explanation.
Didn't know that XG was still widely used.

I, myself, have a soundcanvas capable of playing GM and GS standards, so I don't really see the need to move towards XG, but I can imagine other people having taken a different route.

But I suppose that if the XG standard is not widely used amongst QuestStudios members, that it does influence the amount of effort being put into XG conversions.

[Alistair]

I do agree with Ivar for the most part; XG is quite redundant. Though if it can give a 'close to the MT-32' track feel then it's valuable (though why conversions like 'Wolfgang Ritter' exist, I have no idea. Should be removed. You shouldn't convert a song that's designed for the SC-55 and plays back poorly on the MT-32, for XG.).

I need to add the XG string to my proverbial bow; I've (more or less) got my head around the intricacies of the SC/ED, and as Tom's said before (to paraphrase), "if the goal is to get the highest quality digital audio, then we must look at all the options". I'm pretty sure it was him who said that, anyway.

XG's main use, for my money, is SCI0 MT-32 game scores converted. That is, games 1990 and earlier (though some SCI1 games from '91 as well, and a couple from 92-95). The good MT-32 tunes can be translated to something closer than under the SC-55. XG's GM is possibly a 'fairer General MIDI conversion' than Roland's Sound Canvases give. But I don't *really* know; I'm trying to work out from what I've heard.

- Alistair

[Tom]

Why convert for XG?

Simple.  XG is a far cry from GM.  Many people use an XG card.  Many people don't have SC-55's.  GM is the poorest of all conversions, but it's all many people have available to them.  Those that have XG cards can hear soundtracks that are much better than GM.  I have yet to hear a soundfont that can come close to XG, so I don't consider it an option.  The Microsoft/Roland DLS bank was the best bank option I've heard for Sierra music; not necessarily the best sound output, but the best balance of sounds compared to the Roland GM standard.

The goal of XG, as is with all conversions on this site, is to come as close to immitating the original score.  No, it's not about the best sound quality.  When we convert MT-32 song files, we're trying to come as close as the composers original score so that users who don't have the MT-32, but have one of these other devices, can hear an approximation of the song.  There are exceptions and we call those "enhanced versions", where we add more to the original theme than the composer created.

Still today, based on my experience with AGDI fans (something I did a lot of looking into when writing the KQ2 soundtrack), the Sound Blaster Live! and Audigy are by far the most widely used MIDI cards.  I couldn't bring myself to create a complete game score for SB GM, so I decided on Roland GM -- Sierra's standard.  My goal here at Quest Studios is to produce MIDI files compatible with the most cards I'm able to -- not just for regulars of this site -- but for everybody.  Who knows, I may start supporting Audigy-specific MIDI pretty soon.  (Wait, let me regain my composure.)  

In my opinion, the Yamaha SW60XG is a better sounding card than the SC-55.  But then, I have found the SC-55 is a better candidate for MT-32 conversions because the sounds more closely match.

So...that's why we convert to different formats.  And, the goal of the conversions is:  (Everybody...)  To come as close to immitating the composer's original song (except in the case of "enhanced versions".)

[Ari]

I do agree with Ivar for the most part; XG is quite redundant. Though if it can give a 'close to the MT-32' track feel then it's valuable (though why conversions like 'Wolfgang Ritter' exist, I have no idea. Should be removed. You shouldn't convert a song that's designed for the SC-55 and plays back poorly on the MT-32, for XG.).

Redundant? Based on what exactly? Your SC8850's XG mode? The Yamaha SoftSynth? or have you bought a Yamaha card/module in the last couple of days?
In much the same way, a person with a SB Live! or Audigy or just a Microsoft GS synth would say that GS is redundant and so is ED for someone with an XG device.

The 'Wolfgang Ritter' theme wasn't designed to playback very well on the Yamaha S-YXG50, so you can't possibly have any idea what it should sound like.

Unless, of course, you DO have a real XG device, which I'm quite sure you've stated again and again that you do not.

[Ari]

Ok, I've updated the sq3xg1 theme.
One major change was using a Polybrass in the at 0:50 to get a closer match to what Alistair thought was a choir effect (I think that's what you meant).
I also changed the volume of the Digibell and the percussion track.

What do you guys think?

[HondaSiR]

Errr...when I try to download the file, there's no extension after the filename, Ari. When I try to rename it with an extension, WinAmp still can't play it. Is it just my machine? Or are there also others having this problem? The first SQ3 XG file I downloaded the other day worked, its funny that it doesn't work now.