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Author Topic: update: 16Aug04  (Read 12787 times)
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Ari
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« Reply #20 on: August 18, 2004, 03:19:06 PM »

You tried the link I provided and it didn't work? Weird. I just d/l it without a problem. does anyone else experience any problems as well?
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Alistair
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« Reply #21 on: August 18, 2004, 04:14:27 PM »

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Redundant? Based on what exactly? Your SC8850's XG mode? The Yamaha SoftSynth? or have you bought a Yamaha card/module in the last couple of days?
In much the same way, a person with a SB Live! or Audigy or just a Microsoft GS synth would say that GS is redundant and so is ED for someone with an XG device.

The 'Wolfgang Ritter' theme wasn't designed to playback very well on the Yamaha S-YXG50, so you can't possibly have any idea what it should sound like.

Unless, of course, you DO have a real XG device, which I'm quite sure you've stated again and again that you do not.

Don't be a smartarse- it's just a poor conversion. The MT-32 file is rubbish for the track. The instruments are wrong (Holmes didn't convert it properly) which I attribute mostly due to the fact that the MT-32's polyphony probably couldn't handle the SC-55 track. (E.g. the guitar only gets 2 notes in every loop, whereas for the SC it's always playing)

So converting a redundant MT-32 music file for XG is obviously a waste of time. It ain't gonna magically sound 'good' on some WaveForce compatible sound card or MU module.

I may as well convert some KQ7 or SQ5 MT-32 file which has the wrong instruments from Sierra's dumb-down (i.e. a SC-55 piece dumbed down for the MT-32) to XG.
I already said in my last post that XG's real use was for *MT-32* scores. It has no use converting SC-55 scores dumbed down for the MT-32 (though some SC-55 scores with decent MT-32 support might qualify).

Well said, Tom. I certainly believe there's a place for XG. As you pointed out, where we can come close to the original MT-32 sequence, it's useful to do!

- Alistair
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HondaSiR
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« Reply #22 on: August 18, 2004, 04:37:52 PM »

Quote from: Ari
You tried the link I provided and it didn't work? Weird. I just d/l it without a problem. does anyone else experience any problems as well?


The link works now...somehow my Netscape Navigator is acting up (it can't download files correctly anymore). I remedied the situation by temporarily switching to Internet Explorer, now the downloads are working. I'll try to fix the browser problem later.

Anyhow, I turned off the equalizer function on my WinAmp in order to listen more carefully to the SQ3 conversion (both Ari's first and second recording) as compared to the MT-32 song. Yep, the XG sounds better now, more closer to the original sound, although I think the whistle instrument could still use some volume in the first few seconds of the song. Otherwise, its very good Ari. Very nicely done...you have my seal of approval.

 :smt033
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Ivar
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« Reply #23 on: August 18, 2004, 04:50:06 PM »

What extensive answers for such a simple question  :lol:

Thanks Guys for the addional explanation.

I can very well see the usefulness of XG for MT-32 conversions.
Since I also own a MT-32, I did not think of this.

I suppose GS is/was not very succesful for MT-32 conversions then?

Cheers,
Ivar
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Ari
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« Reply #24 on: August 18, 2004, 05:40:43 PM »

Quote from: Alistair
Don't be a smartarse- it's just a poor conversion. The MT-32 file is rubbish for the track. The instruments are wrong (Holmes didn't convert it properly) which I attribute mostly due to the fact that the MT-32's polyphony probably couldn't handle the SC-55 track. (E.g. the guitar only gets 2 notes in every loop, whereas for the SC it's always playing)

First of all, I suggest you calm down and lay off the "smatarse" remarks.
XG conversions aren't made just to imitate MT-32 midis. They can hold up on their own well enough, and can enhance GM midis in much the same way as GS and ED conversions.


On another note, I've uploaded an XG version of "The Revolver" from PQ2. Enjoy.
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Zemus
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« Reply #25 on: August 18, 2004, 06:03:01 PM »

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The instruments are wrong (Holmes didn't convert it properly).
Yeah, I guess the guy who wrote the song don't really know anything about his OWN tune, whereas you seem to know sooo much more Tongue
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HondaSiR
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« Reply #26 on: August 19, 2004, 02:20:35 AM »

Quote from: Ari
On another note, I've uploaded an XG version of "The Revolver" from PQ2. Enjoy.


Do you plan to upload an OGG or MP3 version later? I can't play native XG files anymore, sold my XG card a long time ago.
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Marten
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« Reply #27 on: August 19, 2004, 06:33:45 AM »

Quote from: Zemus
Quote
The instruments are wrong (Holmes didn't convert it properly).
Yeah, I guess the guy who wrote the song don't really know anything about his OWN tune, whereas you seem to know sooo much more Tongue


Hang on, folks.  While Alistair has been, shall we say, in particular form on this topic, I think he's right.  Let's consider what we know about Sierra and their transition from MT-32 to the SC-55.

Composers such as Holmes took a lot of pride in producing excellent compositions for their adventure games in Sierra's heyday, but every project has schedules... deadlines... and sometimes shortcuts must be taken.  

Tom has observed in the past that the MT-32 scores for Quest for Glory III (Rudy Helm) and Quest for Glory IV (Aubrey Hodges) are grating in some places.  Those soundtracks were composed with the SC-55 as the preferred MIDI device, and the composers either did not have a lot of time available to rework them for the MT-32, or they were unfamiliar enough with the MT-32 to develop good conversions, or some other unknown constraints may have reared their ugly heads.  

Alistair did not accuse Holmes being at some sort of fault here; he pointed out that there may have been considerable difficulty in dropping the SC-55 track down to the MT-32's "real" polyphonic capability of 22 tracks.  

My guess is that multiple reasons are to blame - polyphony and time being the primary factors - and so, as with QfG3 and QfG4, the MT-32 translation of Gabriel Knight's soundtrack is substandard and we are better served with the original SC-55 "as it was meant to be heard."  Remember, all of these games were released in the 1992-1994 time frame, so they were in development during a very turbulent time for Sierra.
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Ari
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« Reply #28 on: August 19, 2004, 07:11:02 AM »

I can accept that, but where does it say that the XG version was made from the MT-32 version and not the SC version?
If it is - fine. But I did not see that mentioned anywhere.

As for an Ogg or MP3 of pq2xg7, I don't want to make a habit out of it, and the S-YXG50 plays it back quite well, so if you can, try and get it.
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Tom
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« Reply #29 on: August 19, 2004, 11:55:52 AM »

Actually, the two examples you give in QFG3 and QFG4 are very good in terms of GM to MT-32 mixes not being equal; KQ7 is the best example I can think of.  In general, any of Sierra's games supporting General MIDI.  And as you know, some are better than others.  GK, for the most part, is one of the better mixes.  But in any event, the claim that "the instruments are wrong" is not a true statement.   I've not encountered this problem in any Sierra game I've converted, where instrumentation choices have been changed between the GM and MT-32 versions.  

To this day, I don't know what part the actual composer had in converting between versions for a game.  I'm assuming, they played a major part in it, since it's their music.  At the very least, I would think the composer would be part of the approving process for the conversion.

What I don't understand in this conversation is, what does any of this have to do with this site providing XG conversions for visitors who use XG sound cards?  The SW60XG has a wonderful overall sound character; great depth, that surpasses the SC-55 in quality.  XG is very popular on the web, so it's a format I'm pleased to be able to support.
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HondaSiR
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« Reply #30 on: August 19, 2004, 12:22:35 PM »

Quote from: Ari
As for an Ogg or MP3 of pq2xg7, I don't want to make a habit out of it, and the S-YXG50 plays it back quite well, so if you can, try and get it.


Ok...I'm in the process of downloading a copy now. I didn't like the idea of a soft-synth earlier (didn't like the Roland softsynth I used some time ago). I'm used to hearing MIDI on a hardware scale now. But I'll give everything a shot. If I download successfully tonight, I'll play around with it and give a review of your conversion later.
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Alistair
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« Reply #31 on: August 19, 2004, 12:42:21 PM »

First of all:
Quote
I suppose GS is/was not very succesful for MT-32 conversions then?


Not at all! GS is *very* useful. There's two types, SC-55 GS, and ED GS. Quite different things.
One main usefulness of GS (both types) is that they contain the default MT-32 patch maps. Most MT-32 music files have at least one instrument from the default patch map and so being able to use the *exact* MT-32 instrument (more or less) is intensely helpful. Tom's been using 'Doctor Solo' in his Willy Beamish conversions recently, for example.

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First of all, I suggest you calm down and lay off the "smatarse" remarks

My apologies, Ari. I am simply sick and tired of having things I know to be factual knocked back by someone who has little or no knowledge of the topic.

Thanks for the revolver track, I've gotta check this one out.

Quote
Yeah, I guess the guy who wrote the song don't really know anything about his OWN tune, whereas you seem to know sooo much more

And if you read my original post Zemus, you wouldn't have made this redundant post. My point was that although the conversion is 'wrong', Holmes couldn't possibly convert it 'correctly'. The polyphony won't handle all the instruments of 'Wolfgang'! Thus, the MT-32 file sounds way poor in places. The guitar track is largely absent, for example.

Quote
While Alistair has been, shall we say, in particular form on this topic, I think he's right

Thanks, I think. But seriously, again- I hate being bashed when I know what I'm talking about. I've worked with Sierra music for a lot longer (and in a lot more depth, I might add) than the likes of Zemus/Ari Stone.

Anyways, back to the point- in my opinion, QFGIII/IV are two examples of *good* MT-32 scores in a SC-55 game. QFG4 was very well converted for the most part. Hodges even converted panflutes to flutes! Noone else bothered, leaving it as 'Sticky1' on the MT-32. Tongue Helm converted pretty well, too. Most QFG3 tracks are alright on a MT-32.
Though, I disagree with Tom about GK too. It was rather poor. A lot of tracks aren't properly converted. I guess Holmes was told to forget about harder MT-32 conversions. He didn't even like working with the SC-55, from what I've read. The digital stuff on the CD version is from a Proteus synth, apparently.
KQ7/SQ6 are rubbish on the MT-32. No effort whatsoever. If they'd made new patch banks, put effort.. who knows. I'm sure the scores could be recreated for the MT-32. I'll do it some day. I will for SQ5 soon, too. Smiley Always hated the MT score for that one.
Again I could quote Rudy Helm who told me that composers at that era (around 1992) were told to compose for the SC-55 and provide 'limited capabilities' for the MT-32. Rudy hated dumbing down, and he wanted to use the 55's GS capabilities, at any rate. But that's another story.

Quote
But in any event, the claim that "the instruments are wrong" is not a true statement. I've not encountered this problem in any Sierra game I've converted

I disagree with that one as well. KQ7 uses 'Pan Flute' for the SC-55. As it's not converted, it becoems 'Sticky1' on the Roland MT-32. That's wrong, surely!
To use the relevant example of 'Wolfgang Ritter', I seem to remember the MT using a piccolo for a shakuhachi. The saw wave became 'GX-1 horns', and the guitar went missing. Tom subsequently used these poorly converted instruments for an XG version, which is my point. Either use the SC-55 version, or stick XG converting to proper MT-32 support games.

For the most part however, I love Tom's XG work. Colonel's Bequest sounds lovely with XG tracks, I once had (upon a time) the XG track from some Sierra Soundtracks Volume CD of 'Tulane'. (A friend sent me the file.) But that was back in the days of my AWE32. Wow, that'd be 1998, 99 or something.

Hey, ever going to upload those CD's Tom? Smiley I'd love pretty much every track from those CD's.

And on a final unrelated note: What's with Inca, the soundtrack CD? Did that game even have GM support, or did you resequence Adlib tracks for the SC-55?

- Alistair
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HondaSiR
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« Reply #32 on: August 19, 2004, 04:56:46 PM »

Wow, I am amazed at the Yamaha soft-synth...It actually sounds better than my YMF-744 sound card! Pretty low background noise, nifty control panel,  and very nice sounding instruments. Very nice! The Roland software program that I had was pretty crappy in comparison.

Now...my review about the PQ2 revolver theme. I listened to three versions, the MT32, Sound canvas GM, and Ari's new XG rendition. Here's my verdict.

The MT32 had the best drums. Very crisp, clear and solid. But the other instruments sounded very synthy.  The Sound Canvas GM has better sounding instruments but they still sound synthy to me. Perhaps if GS was used, it would possibly sound better.

The XG had the best overall balance though, very natural sounding, not a synthy sounding instrument in sight! And the live ambience is just right for the scene in the game. It came as a bit of a shock really, that a software based synthesizer would actually sound better to my ears over the Sound Canvas (I used my SCB-55). I am amazed.
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Zemus
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« Reply #33 on: August 19, 2004, 08:23:04 PM »

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I've worked with Sierra music for a lot longer (and in a lot more depth, I might add) than the likes of Zemus/Ari Stone.
Ofcourse, you have cos you know me personally. You know everything, great Alistair and all your opinions should be stated as pure fact and written down for everything to remember the greatness of the great Alistair. Bah, I remember someone not long ago who couldn't figure out where certain controllers came from in some KQ7 MIDIs cos he had his recording program set up incorrectly...
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Tom
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« Reply #34 on: August 19, 2004, 09:51:46 PM »

Okay, I think it's time to close this thread.

Let's call a truce and start fresh...

...onward to the next debate!
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