MT-32 conversion question

[Ari]

I've been trying to convert some MT-32 themes to GS and XG, and have run into some difficulties.

The problem is that since I have an LAPC-I, I have no way of seeing what the patch names are and have to guess what the instruments actually are.

Is there a win32 based program that can tell me what kind of instruments a certain patch uses to help me convert to other formats?

[Tom]

That DOES make it difficult, not knowing the patch names.  You can look at the patch bank in Dr.T's or SpG to see all the Memory Patch names, but it won't tell you what program number is being used to access each of them through MIDI.  I know of no software that can display what the LAPC is playing on a given channel -- and that's specific to a custom patch bank.  If the songs in question used the default LAPC sounds, that wouldn't be a problem -- comparing it to your Sound List.  But memory patches is definitely a different matter and something I don't think you'll be able to remedy with the LAPC.

[Ari]

I suppose just seeing the instruments in the patch bank would help a lot, but I haven't been able to get Dr. T's to work.
I'll have to try SpG, but as you said, it wouldn't help much anyway...

[Zemus]

You could listen to the instruments, hear which one it tries to portray and then find a suitable XG/GS replacement

[HondaSiR]

Just buy an MT-32, Ari...and save yourself a lot of trouble. I know you have your sights on a CM-64, but it doesn't feature an LCD screen, so it won't help you much. Besides, its really cool having the original "black box" sitting next to your computer  

[Alistair]

Both Zemus and Honda have valid arguments. Firstly, Zemus is right. It's silly to say, for example, "The MT-32 uses patch x so using patch x with the same/similar name in XG will work as a conversion".

I've noticed a few problems with your conversions. The 'Final Battle' from EQ1's a good example. The bass is.. wrong (Acoustic Bass in GM tones of the SC-55 converted from a Synth Bass2V on the MT-32) and the Saw Wave/Electric Guitar combo sounds bad. That's a good example for me of both Zemus and Honda's points. Firstly, with Honda's remarks, you wouldn't have had the problem with the basses if you had a MT-32. The way SynthBass2V sounds in Eco Quest, combined with its' name, was enough to lead me to know to convert it to some Synth Bass track when I worked with it the other week.
Secondly, with Zemus's remarks, listening to the MT-32 guitars is how you convert Eco Quest guitars. You don't just say "the MT-32 uses Overdrive so I convert it to an Overdrive Guitar", but rather "the Mt-32 guitar sounds so and so here", etc.

That said.. your conversion of Heart of China's Finale, assuming it was you that did the one Tom recorded on the MP3 page (I seem to remember that being the case) is excellent! Even better than the MT-32 track for my money.

Having a MT-32 makes GS conversions a million times easier. It gives you a starting point, otherwise it's all guesswork and sound matching (which as Zemus notes, you should be doing anyway). The 'F Vox Strg' patch in Heart of China is a good example.

Enough for now.
- Alistair

[moturimi1]

No need for a MT-32.
You can also play the mid files with VanBasco's Karaoke Player. There you can see which instrument is played by which part. But the instruments shown there are from the GM instrument map.
e.g. if part1 is recognized as "Music Box" by Vanbasco, that means the GM instrument is PC 011. So PC 011 in the MT-32 instrument map would be "Elec Org 3". That works only if the instruments are no user instruments, loaded by SYSEX of course.
So that's also a possibility to convert the mid files.

[Tom]

No need for a MT-32.
You can also play the mid files with VanBasco's Karaoke Player. There you can see which instrument is played by which part. But the instruments shown there are from the GM instrument map.

But Ari's talking about converting FROM the MT-32, not FROM GM.  If converting from GM, all you need to do is look at the Program numbers used -- since GM is GM on every device....you don't need a display.

[moturimi1]

But where's the problem??? The instrument number stays the same, it's just the patch name/sound that's different!!! But we only want the original patch name, so you know what  is being played!!!
Play the mt32 midi file. Use the instrument showed by Vanbasco, get the instrument number from the GM map and compare it with the MT32 map.
Now you have the instrument patch name of the MT32.

[Tom]

The instrument number stays the same, it's just the patch name/sound that's different!!! But we only want the original patch name, so you know what  is being played!!!
Play the mt32 midi file. Use the instrument showed by Vanbasco, get the instrument number from the GM map and compare it with the MT32 map.
Now you have the instrument patch name of the MT32.

Huh?  You've lost me completely.  

How will having the original patch name be of any help?  If the MT-32's default Program name is FrHorn2, and the patch banks Program name is ScarryStrings4 --- both using the same program NUMBER ---  how does that help?

There's no relationship between most MT-32 SysEx patch banks and GM's instrument mapping.  The ONLY exception would be if a GM patch bank is used.

Vanbasco won't have a clue what instrument is playing...unless now it reads Patch Names from MT-32 SysEx data?  Program 25 is the MT-32's SynBrass1 in the preset bank.  But once you load a patch bank into the MT-32, Program 25 could become anything....Fuzz Guitar, Invisible, Shakuhachi, Melodic Toms, etc., etc.  All depends on the SysEx bank.  So I don't understand how Vanbasco would be of any help.

[moturimi1]

How will having the original patch name be of any help?  If the MT-32's default Program name is FrHorn2, and the patch banks Program name is ScarryStrings4 --- both using the same program NUMBER ---  how does that help?

I already said that in my previous message. It doesn't work with the user loaded instruments, but it works with the original instruments.

That works only if the instruments are no user instruments, loaded by SYSEX of course

Maybe I got it wrong. Cause in the original message by Ari there isn't a hint that he only wants to find out the names of the user patches.  At least for me. It seems that nearly everybody misunderstands me in this message board most of the time. As I told you before English isn't my native language. Maybe I have to practise, so that everybody knows what I'm talking about.

The problem is that since I have an LAPC-I, I have no way of seeing what the patch names are and have to guess what the instruments actually are.

[Zemus]

Is there a win32 based program that can tell me what kind of instruments a certain patch uses to help me convert to other formats?

He said he wanted to know which instrument is at each number after loading a sysex bank. Getting only the number wouldn't be enough since the sysex bank would replace some of the default instruments with its own or rearrange the default instruments.

[Tom]

"Maybe I got it wrong. Cause in the original message by Ari there isn't a hint that he only wants to find out the names of the user patches."

Or maybe I did.  But I figured Ari of all people would know how to identify a default MT-32 sound by it's program number.  He's been converting from the MT-32 for years and knows MIDI.

[Alistair]

I'd say the best way would be to print lists of timbre banks for the games you work with (use LA Synth); or write them by hand, matching the 1-128 or 0-127 patches for GM with MT-32. So when a certain GM instrument comes up as the designated patch, you can easily reference what MT-32 program is being sent.

I do this a lot with GS conversions.

- Alistair

[Ari]

First off, Alistair, you're right about "Final Battle". I'm still working on it, trying to improve, but I disagree about the 'Saw'-'Overdrive GT' combination. Matter of taste again.

I want to clarify, I have no problems with converting instruments when it comes to the default ones of the MT-32, but with the ones in irregular sysex patches.

I guess I won't be able to do proper conversions till I get myself a genuine MT-32.

[Alistair]

IMO, when using the SC-55 Saw Wave, all you achieve is a sound which is less like the MT-32 guitars, which surely isn't the effect you're trying to create. But that's your taste, that's fine.

I want to clarify, I have no problems with converting instruments when it comes to the default ones of the MT-32, but with the ones in irregular sysex patches.

I guess I won't be able to do proper conversions till I get myself a genuine MT-32.

As I said, it's not easy even when you've got a 'real' MT-32.

- Alistair

[HondaSiR]

Go for the it, Ari. MT-32s don't cost much nowadays. It's LCD screen may not be much compared to the newer modules, but it does help somehow. And don't forget the easter egg messages that you've been missing from the games! That alone (and the LCD/front panel display buttons) already makes up for the cost of owning one.

[achile464]

You know the conversition is really tedious when you go MT-32 to GM/GS

I try to do a KQ5 and an SQ1 soundfont for fun and some instrument are missing or I'm not sure wich goes where

[Alistair]

Ask me and I can easily give you a satisfactory GM tone list for a KQ% or SQ1 soundfont. Well, KQ5 easily anyway.

Except of course some conversions require different pitches, which means a soundfont won't cut it. Ah well

I disagree! I find converting MT sequences fun! Though it can be tedious sometimes. (KQ5's introduction was a good example of that. )

- Alistair

[HondaSiR]

You know the conversition is really tedious when you go MT-32 to GM/GS

I try to do a KQ5 and an SQ1 soundfont for fun and some instrument are missing or I'm not sure wich goes where

That's because the MT-32 often used custom instruments and sound effects. GM doesn't give us the capability of making our own sounds the way the MT-32 does (by way of Linear Arithmetic).