Got a Roland XV-5050 :)

[shad0wfax]

It's just a bit weird what has happened to me during these last weeks. I purchased a Roland SC-880 sound module in eBay (just my favourite sound canvas module) for US $290. Just a few days after receiving it, a guy offered me EUR 400 for it (around US $480). Although I liked the SC-880, I couldn't resist the offer, so I sold it. Just 4 or 5 days after, I bought a Roland XV-5050 from eBay from a UK seller for UKP 275 (around EUR 400). So, all in all, it can be said that I've acquired a XV-5050 for only $290 (around EUR 250), which is a really good price for such a good module  On the other hand, I wouldn't doubt a second if someone would offer me to exange it for a Yamaha Motif Rack

For anyone who doesn't know about this module, it's basically a cut-down version (in specs, not in sound) of Roland's flagship XV-5080 sound module, but it's still a truly pro machine. It's a good addition to my Fantom, because it's basically the same synthesis engine and gives me another extra 16 midi tracks, 64 more voices of polyphony, 3 more COSM multi FX units (besides reverb, chorus and EQ), and 2 more SRX expansion slots. And it even has got a S/PDIF digital output, so I can link the XV-5050's output to the Fantom's digital input and work in a 100% digital environtment.

I'll record the Compare 2005 midi file and the adaptation of AllStars so everyone can get an idea of how it sounds like.

[Ari]

Neat! you are one lucky bloke!  

[BlueMax]

It's not high-end General MIDI, but FAAaaaantastic for all the other sounds!  You'll have fun with it!

[shad0wfax]

That's true; it seems that Roland is putting GM2 sounds in their newer synths (like the XV-5050 or the Fantom) only for compatibility reasons, because they are a lot poorer than their native counterparts (and they're not editable, contrary to the native patches). I don't know why is it so, because other prevous hi-end modules such as the JV-2080 and the XV-5080 have pretty good GM soundsets.

It's quite annoying that a GM compatible game sounds better in a SC-55 than in a XV-5050 or in a Fantom  :?

[Alistair]

If it's (a game) composed for basic GM/GS devices like the SC-55, why is it annoying? We all kniow the ebst patches are in the GS or otherwise side of the synths.

- Alistair

[shad0wfax]

There're at least two reasons why I find this annoying:

a) If you had a very good GM set on a hi-end synth, there would be no need at all to have also a basic sound canvas (or whatever) to properly listen to gm midi scores. You pay quite a lot of money to have good sounds, and then you find that you'd better still keep the older, basic sound modules. BTW, I don't mean that this is annoying money-wise (unless you've got a very thight budget), but it's annoying becouse you've got more items and cables lying around in the desk, and so on.

b) GM does not end in game music, as there is a huge market of SMFs. In principle, I think that the better the hardware, the better SMFs should sound. I feel that recent Roland's hi-end modules focus only in music production and don't care about the GM side. Maybe this is simply a marketing strategy, and the message is that if you want to write/listen to midi files that follow midi standards (GM/GM2/GS/XG), just get a SC/SD module. It's quite synthomatic that hi-end synths are only GM compatible and not GS nor XG (ALSO the Yamaha Motif).

[BlueMax]

It's just weird that Roland would make a $2000 sound module that sounds great EXCEPT when doing General MIDI which is much weaker than the SC-88.

[Alistair]

I don't agree. it's just different. You may as well say, "My Yamaha module doesn't sound nice for Sierra games, even though it's high-patch and awesome sounding!". It's just a patch difference. The soundtracks' balanced for Roland SC GM, not any other module's GM. I think it's silly to complain that your module for composition doesn't sound nice for games.

I'd be pretty bloody happy if *I* had a Roland XV synth.

- Alistair

[shad0wfax]

I agree with Alistair regarding that most (perhaps virtually all) GM game music scores are balanced for the sound canvas, and they don't sound nice (or as nice as they should) in other machines. But I'm also saying a bit more than this; what I'm saying is that the GM part of new synths is clearly weaker than the native mode, even in "standard" patches such as piano, flute, brass, etc., and it seems that those sounds are there only for compatibility reasons (i.e., for saying that the module is GM compatible), but Roland doesn't seem to care much about them.

So after all I think it's not silly to complain about the quality of the GM soundmap, becuase they (Roland) could simply put the same patches taken from the native mode and arranged to conform the GM map.

[BlueMax]

That's the direction I was thinking.

I certainly never said the module is bad because it's GM is.  It just seems counterproductive to have a module that's so CAPABLE, yet those capabilities are not used for GM.  You'd expect the highest-end module Roland makes to make EVERYTHING sound awesome!  

[Alistair]

Well, the point of GM was to have every 'basic' instrument in there, 128 of them. So, the obvious problem therein is that every GM set differs. And I suppose also GM has to be 'basic', as I think Rudy Helm once said, "plain vanilla" versus the "chocolate" of Roland GS and other such proprietary formats. So the instruments are dumbed down to a certain degree to meet the standard. If you made too fancy, it'd become one of the other variation timbres. Does that make sense?

- Alistair

[shad0wfax]

What you say makes sense, but if that's Roland's point then I don't understand what they are doing. Let me explain: If GM is intended to be a "plain vanilla" very basic soundset, then I'd ve very happy if they simply put SC-55 samples on it. But the GM set is not SC-55's soundset, but something between the old classic sounds and the native mode, and this makes, on the one hand, that music written for the sound canvas doesn't sound as good as in a real SC (different balance and so on), and on the other hand, that it doesn't sound as good as the native mode. So this makes the GM part pretty useless, because if you want to hear the thousands of GM SMFs already written, you'll use a SC, and if you want to create your own music, you'll use the native sounds. And if you intend to write GM/GM2 SMF's, then an Edirol SD is a much better choice (they sound better in GM/GM2 modes and are also GS/XG Lite compatible).

[BlueMax]

... it's as if the General MIDI was added as an afterthought.

"Sir, we've finished making the new sound module - it's great!"
"Does it have GM?"
"Awww.... do we have to?"
"Yes - gotta' maintain compatibility you know."
"but... but pro musicians don't play SMF's... that's what the cheap Sound Canvas is for!"
"I SAID DO IT!!"
"...fine....  we'll add GM."

And it's added.... with less than 1% of the system's true capability.  The smallest, weakest samples.  How hard would it be to simply use the awesome internal sounds and re-map them when you want GM?

[Alistair]

Not hard at all.

Shadowfax: As we see with the 8850, the samples don't sound the same. I had a SC-55, and now have a SC-55 mk II and SC-8850, and the 'SC-55' map doesnt' sound identical on any of them. If an even better module like the XR or XV series had a SC-55 map, it'd be wrong sounding.

And anyway- who buys a Fantom XR to play games with?

- Alistair

[shad0wfax]

Yes, I already know that there are some sonical differences between "SC-55 maps" of some synths (SC-88Pro, SC-8820, SC-8850, SD-20 and so on) and a real SC-55, but nothing important, or at least they are a lot closer to the real thing than GM maps of (some) XVs and Fantoms.

And sure, I suppose that noone buys such an expensive synth for playing games, but I'd prefer that the rom memory wasted for the GM2 map would be used for more native sounds, or that GM2 map was simply a re-mapping of some native patches. The point is: if you want to sell a GM synth, make the GM part useable or worthy enough.

[Alistair]

But- the XV-5050 isn't a "Gm Synth", neither is the Fantom XR. It's purely a legacy support kinda thing.

- Alistair

[shad0wfax]

By "GM synth" I meant only a general midi-compatible synth (i.e., bearing the "GM" logo). Totally agree on your comment about legacy-sort of thing.

[Cloudschatze]

XV-5080 MSRP: $2495
XV-5050 MSRP: $995
Fantom XR MSRP: $1595

Roland had to cut costs somewhere to meet their price range; sounds like GM was one of those areas.

I don't think GM will ever be considered "legacy", as you're sure to find a GM-compatible MIDI module in nearly every stage production house, church chapel, college campus, high-school auditorium, etc. There's simply nothing else out there to replace the SMF. GS and XG, on the other hand, are supposedly replaced by GM2, so any compatibility inclusion based on these two standards could certainly be considered "legacy".

The fact that there aren't any dedicated GM2 modules on the market right now is rather odd (the Studio Canvas line has been discontinued for several months), though maybe it results in more Fantom XR sales.

[Alistair]

GM today is legacy support, though. Really, ever since the SD line of Studio Canvases came out it has been, and you could even argue it was before.

If the base 128 tones aren'tt hat great on nearly every GREAT pro studio module, how can it be anything else?

- Alistair