New Sierra Compilations!

[Cloudschatze]

The way I see it, these compilations either need to be released "right" or not at all.

Release a true collector's edition. Print a hardbound, full-color volume which includes of all of the original documentation. Include the hintbook, InterAction articles, designer notes, magazine reviews, everything - make it a true treasure. Create it so that the game CDs can be stored within the book, and make it attractive enough to be a distinguished addition to a bookshelf. Heck, put gilded volume numbers on the sides so that we'll buy the entire "set" for want of completion. Put some love into it, price it at $75, and people will buy.


Otherwise... Public Domain!

Even with this scenario, Vivendi could gain market recognition from the current gaming generation, which would make sequels or spin-offs more profitable.

[jbltecnicspro]

One common gripe I hear about old Sierra games are "Dude, the graphics are bad." Or "what else do you do with it? You just solve stuff, that's kind of gay..."

Don't take it personally, but your friends are idiots... on multiple counts.

Heh, I think this too, but you have to realize that they weren't raised on Sierra games, and they're a product of today's lackluster videogame titles.  I don't think that it's the graphics that they don't like (I think they lack the vocabulary to explain their feelings of the games), but I think they don't like the fact that the Kings Quest games don't try to shower the player with tons of special effects, and instead of showing off lots of "glitz and glamour," the games provide us with solid storylines, beautiful soundtracks, and awesome hand-drawn art.  They just can't appreciate what they see because look what they're used to...

[Marten]

NewRisingSun,

Yes, I'm a moderator, and I'm pretty certain that the board choked, because I know when I replied, there were quote entries around the message I was replying to.   That only happens when I hit the "Quote" button, not when I hit the "Edit" button.

Of course, now my post is gone, so I'm pretty frustrated too.  It was a pretty long message and I spent a while researching facts before posting it.

[Ari]

That's an awful shame Marten. I'd really like to read what you think about this.  

Cloudschatze: I think that would be a great idea, if Vivendi did that, but again, it's their decision, so I hope they make it a good one.

[Marten]

Whatever I had to say wasn't really that important.  The gist of it was:  Vivendi is a really big company, and while Alistair may be exaggerating at 40%, they're still really big.  They're the number one music company in the world for starters, holding something like 26.5% of all music rights.  So yeah, they do hold a LOT of intellectual property.

And NewRisingSun, I am sorry about your post being clobbered by mine.  I bristled slightly at your suggestion that I wasn't careful; I was careful, but I will be yet more careful in the future to ensure the board isn't mixing things up.

[Alistair]

I'm fairly sure my memory was right about 40%- I studied intellectual property law 12 months ago at Uni, and I wrote a paper covering usage of it (during the research of which I did some 'personal research' into Vivendi). I believe I got it from a Vivendi company report, which I can't seem to find online right now, although I Googled persistently yesterday. I have the misfortune of my brother installing heinous spyware onto this system, hence me not replying sooner, or using the Web for more information. I'll try and post later, but this PC is driving the whole family nuts.

- Alistair

[Ari]

Well, it seems the release date is just 2 days away, at least that's how it is according to Amazon.
They've already got the box cover posted, so the thing seems real enough.

Anyone want to bet on whether or not they'll delay again?  :wink:

[Alistair]

As has been written on my forums and other places (I flagged it 2 weeks ago, even), the 'compilation rereleases' amount to little more than the old games in their original format now with DOSBox included, on the CD.

So, aside from the benefits of new fans, as well as those new fans and old fans both being able to access the games at lower prices, the ultimate reality for those that own the games is this- little incentive to buy crappy-looking box art which has the games we already own and DOSBox in a folder on the game CD.

How do I know DOSBox is their 'solution'? If you look at Vivendi's rerelease pages, DOSBox is mentioned in the copyright legalese at the bottom of the pages.

- Alistair

[Rhizome]

Doesn't seem to be up on amazon.co.uk yet - wouldn't surprise me  :roll:

[Marten]

Instead of these compilations, the various games have been trickling onto GameTap (www.gametap.com).

I spoke to a GameTap rep a month ago and asked if they had any plans to perhaps put the AGDI versions up... even though they're free, I thought putting them on GameTap would give them more exposure.  He indicated he didn't think that was terribly likely.

Then I dropped a hint that he should talk to them about Al Emmo.

Dunno if anything ever came of that, though.

[Alistair]

Heh, I've never been a huge supporter of GameTap. I call GameTap "abandonware".

Eh, I guess I just hate rewarding some company for basically making a buck out of old games.

- Alistair

[Marten]

Well, here's my perspective.

There's a lot of hoo-rah and complaining about movements in the game industry from a product model to a service model.  Instead of getting a CD in your hot little hands, and being able to install it whenever you want, with the service model you must download it and you never really own it - if the service stops, your access stops.  This is offensive to the same people who prefer owning DVDs over using pay-per-view.

But there are a lot of titles that I never cared to own.  I see GameTap's model as something a little closer to NetFlix.  GameTap is letting me play games that I didn't want to shell out $40 - $60 a piece for.  That includes Descent III and Descent Freespace, and Homeworld II.  When these games came out, I had started looking at my closet and realizing just how many thousands of dollars I've spent on games that I played only a little of, and never finished.  Games are comng out faster than I can play them.  At $10 a month, that's $120 a year... or about 2 games purchased at retail.  In that sense, GameTap is a cheaper habit than buying the retail games.  And, I have a greater selection.

GameTap also provides multiplayer access for a lot of classic arcade games.  You can play Dig Dug against a friend on the opposite coast.  It's true that you can also do this for free with multiplayer-enabled versions of MAME, but (a) MAME is a bit clunky, (b) Average Joe doesn't know about it, and (c) it's not really legal unless you own a genuine copy of the Dig Dug arcade game.  GameTap solves these problems.

GameTap also provides live streaming Cartoon Network at no additional cost.  I don't have cable TV (there isn't enough on TV to justify the cost), so it's nice to get this perk from GameTap.

GameTap knows they have a reputation as a graveyard for abandoned games.  This isn't strictly true though.  The games have to be ported and tweaked so they'll run on modern computers.  GameTap has original King's Quest and Quest for Glory games working, and they've got their own DosBox like program built-in, so everything is transparent and easy for the user, and it Just Works.  Again, this is a big thing for Average Joe.  I don't mind "paying a buck" to someone who has taken the time to make content work on my computer; I have fought with DosBox, it's far from perfect, and it really is a pain to use.  I don't want to spend hours configuring my games to get them to run - I just want to play!

And finally, to shake that reputation, GameTap is getting into new content with the episodic Sam & Max games, and with the return of Uru Live.  I expect that if these first steps are successful, GameTap will look to sign exclusive agreements with more game producers.

[Nytegard]

I'm kind of disappointed in the collection.  You might not like what I'm going to say, but I'm going to be honest here.

Anyone who really wanted to play these games, probably either owned them and already has them, or bought them on ebay, or pirated them.

For $20 apiece, I'm very disappointed.  First, these collections have already been out for awhile. I could probably wait and find them cheaper on Ebay or GameTZ, and just download DOSBox and get them running that way.  Also, electronic manuals?

If anything, these collections should have been in Jewel Cases for $4.99-$9.99 apiece.

But what really disappoints me is that these collections have already been out.  What about the Conquest series?  What about the Laura Bow series?  What about the Manhunter series?  What about Peppers Adventure in Time?  I guess something similar to the Roberta Williams Collection, only with all the older Sierra games.  Call it the Classic Sierra Anthology.  That could probably sell for $49.99 and would be a much better bargain than these collections.

(And I doubt the problem is locating all the games.  There are many collectors I'd think who would be willing to help donate copies of any games which cannot be found.  Heck, I own every Sierra game ever made before 1995, all in their original boxes, with manuals.  I basically made my own Sierra Collectors disks).

[Ari]

Being pretty much the only one here who supported this compilation, I really can't say I don't like what you have to say.  :wink:

My whole point in this argument, was that Vivendi had every right to publish the games again and that it's a good thing they did. Whether they did it well or not, is another matter.

You're absolutely right, They should have probably put in a little more effort into it, and I don't know if they'll make much profit from these compilations, but the fact remains that it's their mistake to make, and I can't, for the life of me understand why people would oppose the idea of re-releasing (or is it re-re-releasing  :roll: ) the games in the first place, unless they were trying to make a buck out of those games themselves.

Anyway, I'm sorry to hear the KQ collections is such a disappointment. Maybe the other compilations won't be as disappointing.

[Alistair]

Actually, Ari:

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4325695&postcount=56

This guy pretty much agrees with Nytegard said.

Seems pretty disgraceful, IMO- DOSBox is their "XP ready" solution as I've said before, plus they're not even including all the games- with the LSL pack, LSL6 CD and LSL7 are not included on the one CD they give you, plus there's a LSL7 screenshot on the Vivendi LSL collection webpage!

Additionally, it seems they've removed the install.exe files, meaning to edit your sound drivers for example you have to edit resource.cfg. Not big deal for me, but for your average fan- big deal! Expect a zillion tech support help posts on other Sierra related forums.

and I can't, for the life of me understand why people would oppose the idea of re-releasing (or is it re-re-releasing  ) the games in the first place, unless they were trying to make a buck out of those games themselves.

Quite simply, because Vivendi is a company who has no love for Sierra or the memories.

There's a difference between a 'legal right' and a 'moral right'. I've never said Vivendi has a legal obligation to not rerelease games. Obviously, they own the property associated with most of Sierra's games, so in theory they can do what they like.

BUT, that doesn't mean that as a hardcore Sierra fan I have to like it, or that it's the right course of action either in a business sense or a moral one!

I'm disgusted by Vivendi, not releasing LSL7, when it was one of the most popular LSL games, if not Sierra games. I'm disgusted by no manuals, and a lack of install options. I'm disgusted that like Nytegard said, only the most mainstream of Sierra games are being rereleased- don't expect to see Dynamix games anytime soon.

I however am optimistic that the rereleases will bring benefits, such as new fans to a lot of very old, very much dying Sierra community areas- websites and forums, that is.
And also it's better that fans don't have to pay upwards of 50 dollars on EBay.

To quote myself from August 30th (from my forums):

Now. I guess I need to reassess my attitude. Of course I agree with Jeysie, new fans is great (except of course if we get a million 15 and under year olds), lower prices for better accessibility is great, nice box art is great, and so on.

However, Vivendi making money from these games is depressing. I'm not a fan of Vivendi in relation to their Sierra "franchise".

To that end, I don't see what good it does for the memory of Sierra to have Vivendi using their ownership of the games' rights to flog some cheap collections.

Probably the main way in which I get frustrated is that people assume the collections will somehow be "XP ready". We have no proof, nor no reason to believe, that the collections will be any more than DOSBOX on a disk with some old games!

That doesn't mean if you're optimistic for something better I think you're a moron, totally not the case. I just still feel there's room for cynicism. I don't feel any cause for optimism when it comes to Vivendi, as I know it only lets you down- LSL : MCL, case in point.

We shall see what they're like!

And I guess that's where my "beef" is with Vivendi, that Sierra is basically like a franchise they own, not something individual and brilliant, but simply a company they own that exists to make money and be a cash cow.

And not only that, but they seek to deny fans the right to basically pay homage to 'their property', ergo, me recording a Sierra soundtrack, or someone making a fangame, or so forth. And actively threaten such fans with lawsuits, despite the fact that they don't seek to make a profit at Vivendi's expense (which is the point of copyright law, to protect your property agaisnt unathorised infringement and economic loss resulting from that). And it's illegal to download for example LSL7, although they don't offer it for sale.

It just all adds up basically an unsatisfactory deal for the fans. Which as a Sierra fan, I think sucks.

- Alistair

[Great Hierophant]

While originally only the economic incentive mattered in copyright, now copyright also protects the proprietary interests in a creative work.  Vivendi has every right to shut down a fan-game like the AGCI games, stop people from ripping the soundtrack or the sprites.  They could shut this site down tomorrow if the fancy struck them.  Whatever informal agreement they may have with the owners, there would always be the understanding that they could withdraw their permission at any time.  Intellectual property must be protected or you can lose your rights, the legal department is simply doing its job when it sends out cease and desist letters.  

Company policy directs which, if any, fan projects will be tolerated.  Most companies don't have the time to judge exploitative projects from respectful ones, or they simply just don't care.  Their mindshare often is, right or wrong, that adventure games obscelete, the fan base is tiny and they don't buy the current product.  

When Vivendi bought Sierra in 1998, it was already undergoing the move away from adventure games and development of games to publishing them instead.  Sierra's acquisition simply brought them more games to publish.  It is better financially to be a publisher than a developer.  If a game fails, the publisher loses money associated with packaging and promoting the product, but the developer may have to shut down or shed jobs.  

The success or failure of these compilations will dictate which, if any further compilations are released.  I'm sure these compliations are so cheap that not even the copy protection has been disabled.

[Marten]

A few things said above don't jive.

First, about install.exe being missing and needing to edit resource.cfg; er.... the game is running in DosBox.  Therefore, to the game, it doesn't matter what type of hardware is actually on the computer.  It's running in a virtualized environment.  So, you don't need to configure the game for the hardware.  Thus, no install.exe, and you don't need to edit resource.cfg.  (If you are actually trying to use your MT-32 with this collection, it's a safe bet that you're already technically inclined enough to deal with this.)

Second, about copy protection - I'd expect manual-based copy protection to appear in all the expected places, but the floppy-based protection was removed for the _last_ round of collections, so I'm certain it won't be present in this one.  You wouldn't even be able to start the games if the protection still existed.  Some people don't even have floppy drives on their computers these days!

Please note:  None of my above comments are in defense of Vivendi's handling of this matter.  I'm just trying to set some facts straight.

[NewRisingSUn]

I wouldn't have expected these to be released at all. I'm actually more annoyed at the water company for selling DosBox for profit than those old games. They should have known better than to use a license that allows commercial sale. Looking at the DosBox forum, they seem to even be okay with it. Can you believe it?

Thus, no install.exe, and you don't need to edit resource.cfg. (If you are actually trying to use your MT-32 with this collection, it's a safe bet that you're already technically inclined enough to deal with this.)

So what ARE the RESOURCE.CFG settings on these collections? I consider the water company capable of putting STD.DRV as the soundDrv, and all those people would wonder about the crappy sound. Or maybe not, looking at some classic misconfigured game reviewers.

[Great Hierophant]

Did they get permission from Qbix and Harekiet to include it in their package?  I wonder if they even contacted them.  

The Space Quest Compilation, with CD versions of IV and VI and the King's Quest Compilation with CDs for V, VI and VII seem to be the best buys.  Using the disk version of LSL6 instead of the CD version was a huge mistake.  I can see why they didn't include 7 though.  Also, why didn't they include the AGI versions of the first games as they had in every other previous compilation?  It stinks that they removed the install programs as well.

[kreatorb]

hangon - so they removed the exe's? Does that mean that if I get the space quest collection I won't be able to play it under dos without downloading some warez?

If so that's a major bummer for me and it kills much of the point in buying a legit version (which doesn't come with any manuals anyway).

Another thing is.. should I expect this to be released in Australia or should I be ordering from the US?