Two Issues about the AWE32

[mace]

So, to my mind we have three unanswered questions about the 16-bit Sound Blasters:

1.  When did Creative stop using a true OPL3 or OPL3 core and adopt their CQM core?

2.  When, if ever, did Creative finally lick the "hanging notes" midi bug?

3.  Is there a card, other than the earliest Sound Blaster 16's (CT-1740, CT-1750, CT-1770) that has a true OPL3 core (if not chip) and does not suffer from the hanging notes bug, and comes with the CT-1745 mixer chip or its feature equilavent?

Maybe we should make our own FrankenBlaster or something.
The best of all worlds. 

[Cloudschatze]

So, to my mind we have three unanswered questions about the 16-bit Sound Blasters:

1.  When did Creative stop using a true OPL3 or OPL3 core and adopt their CQM core?

I think it's fairly apparent that the CQM adaptation began with the cards having solder pads for both the CT1978 + DAC and OPL3-L + DAC. Looking at the dates, the OPL-based cards were released before the CT1978 (CQM) versions. CQM must have been "in the works" at the time the cards were designed.

2.  When, if ever, did Creative finally lick the "hanging notes" midi bug?

I don't think they did, and I've read that some daughterboard implementations were modified instead. One of these days, I'll have to test my DBs to discover which, if any, might apply.

[kreatorb]

Personally, I use a mpu-401at for my sound canvas - so I don't care about waveblasters or hanging notes. 

My primary concern is:

What is the most compatible and quietest soundblaster for FM and digital sound?  Nothing else a soundblaster does should stand above these IMO. I'll take a hardware mixer, waveblaster, or EMU8000 features of the AWE32 as a freebie, but I'm not going to compromise on FM or digital sound to do so.  PnP doesn't concern me so long as it works.

I currently use a ct1770 (which I assume is also equivalent to the CT1740), but am not wedded to it. Is this the best choice?

Others I have been considering are the PAS16, SB Pro2, CT2940.  Is there a clear winner?

Suggestions, thoughts?

[Great Hierophant]

So, to my mind we have three unanswered questions about the 16-bit Sound Blasters:

1.  When did Creative stop using a true OPL3 or OPL3 core and adopt their CQM core?

I think it's fairly apparent that the CQM adaptation began with the cards having solder pads for both the CT1978 + DAC and OPL3-L + DAC. Looking at the dates, the OPL-based cards were released before the CT1978 (CQM) versions. CQM must have been "in the works" at the time the cards were designed.

2.  When, if ever, did Creative finally lick the "hanging notes" midi bug?

I don't think they did, and I've read that some daughterboard implementations were modified instead. One of these days, I'll have to test my DBs to discover which, if any, might apply.

Then the conclusion that many AWE32s have a true OPL core within their CT-1747 chips.  But has this been verified?  Couldn't Creative have already developed their CQM synthesis by this time?  Also, is OPL a Yamaha trademark?  It is possible, if it isn't, that Creative designed their own OPL3 core or used another company's like Analog Devices'or Crystal Semiconductor's cores.  I have never read or heard of any proof that the CT-1747 and YM-262 produce a different sound or produce sound in a different way.  However, the CT-1747 does integrate the bus controller. 

The last question on the midi.  Are the same hanging notes problems displayed through the gameport connector as they are through the waveblaster connector on these cards?  The processing should be the same for both.  I do not use daughterboards anymore, for this reason and others, but I would know as to standalone modules. 

[Locutus]

The last question on the midi.  Are the same hanging notes problems displayed through the gameport connector as they are through the waveblaster connector on these cards?  The processing should be the same for both.  I do not use daughterboards anymore, for this reason and others, but I would know as to standalone modules. 

To my knowledge, the waveblaster connector is hard-wired to the MIDI out on the gameport. So the hanging notes problem would apply to both. It would be interesting to know, if the problem persists in AWE64 cards, which don't have a waveblaster connector anymore, but the gameport's MIDI out. I vaguely recall to have read about AWE64 and hanging notes on Vogons, but I don't remember anyhting in particular.

Regards,
locutus

[Cloudschatze]

Then the conclusion that many AWE32s have a true OPL core within their CT-1747 chips.  But has this been verified?  Couldn't Creative have already developed their CQM synthesis by this time?  Also, is OPL a Yamaha trademark?  It is possible, if it isn't, that Creative designed their own OPL3 core or used another company's like Analog Devices'or Crystal Semiconductor's cores.  I have never read or heard of any proof that the CT-1747 and YM-262 produce a different sound or produce sound in a different way.  However, the CT-1747 does integrate the bus controller. 

I believe that the CT1747 has an integrated OPL3.

"OPL" was trademarked by Yamaha in April of 1994, which, as suggested previously, would account for why the later CT1747 chips are marked with the logo, while the earlier chips are not.

As far as verification...

Someone ought to do a CT1747/CT1978/YMF262 comparison.

[mace]

Sorry to kick this old topic, but something just caught my eye.

My SB32 has a CT1978 CQM AND a CT1749 chip, which intergrates the CT1747.

So which one is used when playing FM?

[Cloudschatze]

My SB32 has a CT1978 CQM AND a CT1749 chip, which intergrates the CT1747.

It must not integrate the entire CT1747, since the CT1978 is there to provide FM.

[Ari]

It would be interesting to know, if the problem persists in AWE64 cards, which don't have a waveblaster connector anymore, but the gameport's MIDI out.

Doesn't the AWE64 Gold have a Waveblaster connector? I could have sworn I saw one in the pictures - at the top of the card.

Or is that for the memory expansion cards?

[mace]

It would be interesting to know, if the problem persists in AWE64 cards, which don't have a waveblaster connector anymore, but the gameport's MIDI out.

Doesn't the AWE64 Gold have a Waveblaster connector? I could have sworn I saw one in the pictures - at the top of the card.
- IMAGE REMOVED -
Or is that for the memory expansion cards?

It's for the memory expansion, of which the 24 MB version is the CT1950.
I believe that the CT1910 thru 1950 are the part numbers, with increasing sizes.

24 MB is the maximum, and this brings it to a total of 28 MB.
Here's a picture:


Very hard to get those expansion cards these days though.

[mace]

EDIT: Sorry about the doublepost.

My SB32 has a CT1978 CQM AND a CT1749 chip, which intergrates the CT1747.

It must not integrate the entire CT1747, since the CT1978 is there to provide FM.

That would mean that this list is wrong:

Code:

Creative (V)LSI     Function
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
CT1701              8/16-bit ADC/DAC Codec
CT1703              16-bit ADC/DAC Codec
CT1741              DSP
CT1745              Analog Mixer
CT1746              ISA Bus interface
CT1747              E-mu CQM OPL3 replacement
CT1748              ASP (CSP)
CT1749              VLSI: CT1741+CT1746+CT1747
CT1971              EMU-8000 processor
CT1972              EMU-8011 (1 MB Mask waveROM)
CT1978              Binaura 3-D Audio
CT2501              VLSI: ViBRA-16     = CT1703+CT1741+CT1745+CT1746
CT2502              VLSI: ViBRA-16 Pro = CT1703+CT1741+CT1745+CT1746+CT1747
CT2504              VLSI: ViBRA-16S    = CT1703+CT1741+CT1745+CT1746
CT2505              VLSI: ViBRA-16C    = CT1703+CT1741+CT1745+CT1746+CT1747
CT2511              VLSI: ViBRA-16XV   = CT1703+CT1741+CT1745+CT1746+CT1747
CT8903              VLSI: CT1971+CT1978+ CT1703+CT1741+       CT1746+CT1747
CT8908              VLSI: S/PDIF digital output
CT8920              VLSI: CT1971+CT1978+ CT1703+CT1741+CT1745+CT1746+CT1747

It lists the CT1749 as having the CT1747, but it also lists the CT1978 as being the Binaura 3-D Audio chip, and not the CQM chip.

So either the CT1978 is NOT a OPL3/CQM chip, or the CT1747 does not do OPL3/CQM

EDIT:

The last question on the midi.  Are the same hanging notes problems displayed through the gameport connector as they are through the waveblaster connector on these cards?  The processing should be the same for both.  I do not use daughterboards anymore, for this reason and others, but I would know as to standalone modules. 

To my knowledge, the waveblaster connector is hard-wired to the MIDI out on the gameport. So the hanging notes problem would apply to both. It would be interesting to know, if the problem persists in AWE64 cards, which don't have a waveblaster connector anymore, but the gameport's MIDI out. I vaguely recall to have read about AWE64 and hanging notes on Vogons, but I don't remember anyhting in particular.

Regards,
locutus

I'd be happy to test that whn I get mine.

[Tom]

It would be interesting to know, if the problem persists in AWE64 cards, which don't have a waveblaster connector anymore, but the gameport's MIDI out.

Doesn't the AWE64 Gold have a Waveblaster connector? I could have sworn I saw one in the pictures - at the top of the card.
Or is that for the memory expansion cards?

Mine doesn't.  My two AWE32's do.

[Great Hierophant]

The AWE64 Gold, due to its lack of noise, may very well be the best option for people looking for a 16-bit Sound Blaster.  However, it does use Creative Quadrangular Modulation.  It has yet to be proven whether this creates a different sound than a device using Yamaha's OPL3 chip or core.  Additionally, it is not known whether the AWE64 suffers from the hanging notes bug.  

See here for a way around the proprietary upgrade path for the AWE64:

http://simmconn.tripod.com/

[Cloudschatze]

That would mean that this list is wrong:

Indeed.

So either the CT1978 is NOT a OPL3/CQM chip, or the CT1747 does not do OPL3/CQM

For the third time...
The CT1978 is a CQM chip, and the CT1747 appears to contain a Yamaha OPL3. I'd be happy to put this in a list, if that somehow legitimizes things.

[mace]

That would mean that this list is wrong:

Indeed.

So either the CT1978 is NOT a OPL3/CQM chip, or the CT1747 does not do OPL3/CQM

For the third time...

Relax 

The CT1978 is a CQM chip, and the CT1747 appears to contain a Yamaha OPL3. I'd be happy to put this in a list, if that somehow legitimizes things.

Don't get all exited, I was just confused. 

So you mean that the CT1978 is CQM, and the CT1747 is OPL3, but the CT1749 does NOT intergrate the CT1747.
In that case it's clear.

[NewRisingSUn]

However, it does use Creative Quadrangular Modulation.  It has yet to be proven whether this creates a different sound than a device using Yamaha's OPL3 chip or core.

Want me to post example to "prove" it, or do you believe me if I just say to you that it sounds different?

Additionally, it is not known whether the AWE64 suffers from the hanging notes bug

I have an AWE64 Gold. How do I find out?

[kreatorb]

Sheesh I wish people would quit beating around the bush and just say what card they recommend and why, rather than saying which cards they don't.  I don't know where to begin to respond to these tomes of information that conclude nothing.

Have an opinion guys!

[mace]

However, it does use Creative Quadrangular Modulation.  It has yet to be proven whether this creates a different sound than a device using Yamaha's OPL3 chip or core.

Want me to post example to "prove" it, or do you believe me if I just say to you that it sounds different?

Additionally, it is not known whether the AWE64 suffers from the hanging notes bug

I have an AWE64 Gold. How do I find out?

On vogons there is a topic about this, and apparently hexen suffers from this bug. (questers are active in this topic, like 5u3 and Great H.)
You can use the demo if you dont have the full one, but the intro music of this level seems to exhibit this bug.

Start hexen with this option:
"hexen.exe -warp 02"

It should be apparent right off the bat.

[Great Hierophant]

However, it does use Creative Quadrangular Modulation.  It has yet to be proven whether this creates a different sound than a device using Yamaha's OPL3 chip or core.

Want me to post example to "prove" it, or do you believe me if I just say to you that it sounds different?

Additionally, it is not known whether the AWE64 suffers from the hanging notes bug

I have an AWE64 Gold. How do I find out?

As far as the CQM goes, if you say it is different, then it is different.  Perhaps the time would be better spent comparing the output of the CT-1747 with the YMF-262. 

[BlueMax]

Here's a picture:

[/quote]

I got an AWE64 Value card with something really neat called the "SimmConverter" which was a homemade board that allows the use of any old 72-pin SIMM you want!  No expensive specialty RAM modules!

So my AWE64Value has a 32MB SIMM, allowing 28MB of soundfont RAM.  Great for tracker music!