Commodore 64 - Third time's a charm?

[Kaminari]

I was more of a Specchum than a C64 fanboy, but I spent quite some time on the Commodore of a friend. Say what you want about technical specs, but in the end there's a reason why some machines were more popular in some places than in others, and it didn't have much to do with distribution. CPC and ST were popular in France because many French developers had decided that they were the best machines to develop for. Amiga and C64 were more popular in Germany, MSX in Holland and Spain, Spectrum in the UK...

About the Atari XL (developed by Jay "Amiga" Miner in 1979), it's a shame that it didn't get more attention because it was technically at least as powerful as the C64 in every department, while being five years ahead of the competition. For some reason it went completely underestimated. Nowadays, you can even play SID tunes on the Pokey sound chip, and some terrific homebrew conversions really show the potential of the ill-fated system.

Now that's retrogaming nostalgia :)

[Great Hierophant]

To me the Atari 8-bit systems have a great deal of character to them.  As a gaming system they were second to none, easy to load games, good joysticks and paddles, many quality conversions.  The 800 with its support for four digital joysticks/eight analog paddles, two cartridges, 48KB of RAM, 256 color palette to me is the best pre-crash gaming device.  More importantly, Atari really supported its computer systems big time, at least before the Trammiels bought that portion of the company from Time Warner.  Commodore's software support was much more limited, only for the first two years of the computer's introduction.

I believe the SID is doubly unfortunate.  In the US, developers with few exceptions had not felt the need to integrate computer music into computer games.  Sound hardware was mostly employed for sound effects.  No doubt this is a legacy of development on the Apple II, TRS-80, Atari 2600 and the Atari 8-bit computers, all of which could not boast very impressive sound hardware.  The SID, although not superior in every way to the chips that had come before it, (POKEY, TIA, AY-3-8910/14, VIC, TI SN76489/96, SAA-1099), had more potential and was more much more musical.  In Europe, composers took advantage of its quirky design to write music for the chip that is very impressive given the technology available. 

The tragic part about this is that this impressive music was heard mainly during game loading screens.  This was a byproduct of Commodore's ridiculous overpricing of its disk drive, forcing the market to rely on cassette tapes for storing commercial programs and games.  What was seen by the time of the Commodore's release as something out of the stone-age, in Europe, cassette storage was the 8-bit programs were stored.  Loading these programs could take several minutes as the tape player spools the tape.  Rather than have the player sit looking at a blank screen in silence, companies put loading screens and tunes into their games to entertain the player while they waited.  People bought otherwise crappy games just for this.  Of course, once the game actually loaded, most of the time you would hear the same combination of silence, simple tunes and sound effects found in every other home computer and console of the time.  With music, graphics and game logic all competing for only approximately one million cycles per second, something usually suffered. 

In short, I don't buy the claims of the greatness of the C64 because of its SID chip and all the great game music resulting from it.  The music was tacked onto the game instead of being integrated into it (in most cases.)  I would not have appreciated spending ten pounds on a game cassette, only to find that the I had exhausted the game's enjoyment within seven minutes of pressing play on the tape, which, incidentally, was the last worthwhile interactivity I had with the program. 

[Laust]

I'm curious Great Hierophant, did you ever have or use a C64 significantly during its heyday? played many games from tape?  The reason I ask is because it sounds to me like you're basing your arguments more on things you've read on the 'net, than actual experience. And I'm sorry, but that's not enough to draw conclusions on. Saying that people bought crappy games for their loading music is especially ludicrous, feel free to back up that claim.

The discussion here reminds me of this older thread which covers much of the same topic (including some of the fallacies stated here).

If I wanted to somehow "claim" that the C64 or its music was great, or rather, popular (because "great" is more subjective and could be argued endlessly), I'd simply point out the thriving remix community, or the "High Voltage SID Collection" (almost 1000 downloads since the latest update was released a week ago) or the still active composers, or the monthly Music Chart that Zzap! 64 magazine had back in the day (where readers would vote for their favourite game tunes), or, well, you get the point...

[BlueMax]

Saying that people bought crappy games for their loading music is especially ludicrous, feel free to back up that claim.

Heck, PC did that too!  In the early AdLib days, there were some games like Captain America vs. Dr. Doom and Omnicron Conspiracy (heck, also Mechwarrior) that claimed AdLib support, but all it was was a single title song (mayyyyybe a victory song at the end, too.)

Even KQ4 only had music during key scenes, not the liberal use of music seen later in.

[Great Hierophant]

I'm curious Great Hierophant, did you ever have or use a C64 significantly during its heyday? played many games from tape?  The reason I ask is because it sounds to me like you're basing your arguments more on things you've read on the 'net, than actual experience. And I'm sorry, but that's not enough to draw conclusions on. Saying that people bought crappy games for their loading music is especially ludicrous, feel free to back up that claim.

No, I never used a C64 or any other classic computer back in the day.  Living in the US and growing up in the 1980s I would not have had much opportunity to play games from tape.  The load times for the games would have turned me off.  But the number of comments I have read about "great music, crappy game" suggest that C64 consumers really became attached to the loading screen composers.   

[BlueMax]

But the number of comments I have read about "great music, crappy game" suggest that C64 consumers really became attached to the loading screen composers.   

Often it wasn't just the loading screen music people raved about, but throughout.  (I think of Rambo II... GREAT music, crummy game.)

"Loading" screen music was usually C64 crackers and hacker intros.

[Cloudschatze]

Hmm. My SX-64 appears to have issues.

I didn't think anything of it before when I didn't have a cursor at the READY screen, since a keyboard wasn't attached. Now that one is, I still have no cursor, nor do I get any on-screen input response.

Ray Carlsen recommends that I disassemble the unit, re-seat the cards, and swap the positions of the two 6526 chips, to determine if one is bad. Guess this is today's project!

If that doesn't work, he only lives 90 minutes away.

[kreatorb]

if it turns out to be any help, I've got a spare I/O card from a sx64 you can have (free). Untested though.

[Cloudschatze]

if it turns out to be any help, I've got a spare I/O card from a sx64 you can have (free). Untested though.

Thank-you! I don't think I'll need it, but I appreciate the offer.

I opened up the SX-64... If I had any lingering doubt that the thing was never used, this pretty much did away with it. No dust. Pristine everything.

Anyhow, I didn't want to remove the I/O card after looking at the cable nightmare, and just kind-of pushed on the two 6526 chips instead.

And that worked.

I now have a cursor prompt. I may still end up re-seating the chips, as there are some issues with text input. It's somewhat "flaky," randomly requiring several key presses before the output appears on-screen.

But it works! I was even able to run a neat little C64 "Christmas card" demonstration, complete with sound-effects and music.

[Laust]

Often it wasn't just the loading screen music people raved about, but throughout.  (I think of Rambo II... GREAT music, crummy game.)

You thought Rambo II was a  bad game? I played it quite a bit (it was hard, though, never completed it). I think it got decent reviews as well, can't all have been for the music.  I think a lot of games haven't aged well, and the expectations people have to games today have certainly changed since then, so it's easy to look back on a game and think "gee, it's really not that great", when back then you would have been satisfied and considered it good value for money.

However, you make an excellent point, that games with great loading music also had great in-game music. That is why this focus on loading tunes, IMO, is unwarranted, nor were they the pinnacle of what was produced on the C64.

"Loading" screen music was usually C64 crackers and hacker intros.

I bought most of my games back then, so no cracker intros. Of course, that changed when I got a disk drive...

[shad0wfax]

  But the number of comments I have read about "great music, crappy game" suggest that C64 consumers really became attached to the loading screen composers.   

Great Hierophant, among nearly 10,000 game titles, it's normal that there's lots of crap, but for sure the C-64 had really great games too. I can recall now titles such as Uridium, International Karate, Impossible Mission, Frankie Goes to Hollywood, Last Ninja, Parallax, Zamzara, Mayhem in Monsterland, etc. There were also great arcade conversions, such as Commando, Terra Cresta, Marble Madness, and many many more. If all you want to say is that there were a higher number of good soundtracks than of good games, I'd agree with you, but this wouldn't mean that nearly all C64 games were crap, but only that usually soundtracks were taken seriously by C64 developers. It had the best audio hardware of its time and category and most programmers wanted to show it. Of course, there were games that were only worth their music, but also great games with average/poor music and (best of all) great games with great music.

If you're curious, I suggest giving a look at C64 demos such as Deus Ex Machina (2000) or Desert Dreams (2007). You can use an emulator such as VICE or CCS64 to watch them. Then tell me if a 8086-based PC could ever do something like this (regarding both gfx effects and music)

[Laust]

I now have a cursor prompt. I may still end up re-seating the chips, as there are some issues with text input. It's somewhat "flaky," randomly requiring several key presses before the output appears on-screen.

The same keys or totally random? the keyboards can go bad too, an extra hard workout (hammering the keys a few times) might help that, it's probably bad contacts. If it's not consistently happening to the same keys, reseating/swapping the CIA chips sounds like the way to go.

[MichalN]

Great Hierophant, among nearly 10,000 game titles, it's normal that there's lots of crap, but for sure the C-64 had really great games too.

Considering the old adage that everything is 90% crap, there should be about 9,000 crappy games for the C64   But those aren't what people remember, they remember the thousand great ones.

I can recall now titles such as Uridium, International Karate, Impossible Mission, Frankie Goes to Hollywood, Last Ninja, Parallax, Zamzara, Mayhem in Monsterland, etc.

Uridium is one of the C64 games with original music that stuck in my memory. Catchy tunes. Last Ninja is a good one too. Others that I remember are Yie Ar Kung Fu (the music is a J-M Jarre conversion IIRC), Chimera, Robin of the Wood, or Giana Sisters.

If you're curious, I suggest giving a look at C64 demos such as Deus Ex Machina (2000) or Desert Dreams (2007). You can use an emulator such as VICE or CCS64 to watch them. Then tell me if a 8086-based PC could ever do something like this (regarding both gfx effects and music)

I think the very fact that people are writing C64 demos literally decades after the platform became obsolete speaks volumes.

[Nytegard]

Perhaps they'll sound better when played-back on the actual hardware

Yes, perhaps. But I think the real reason is that the SID is the most overhyped sound chip of all time.

I just don't know if I can agree.  We're looking at the game in a context of 2007, where PC upgrades are common.

Maybe SID isn't the greatest sound chip of all time, but when you bought a C64, you had one.  If you bought an Apple, you needed a Mockingbird for sound, which added onto the price.  And if you had a PC, you needed a sound card.  Honestly, the majority of people I knew didn't have an MT-32 let alone an Adlib.  It wasn't until CD-ROMs became standard that my friends started having sound cards.  And when you compare SID music to the PC speaker, it really does sound great.

As for the popularity of the C64.  Like many things, you really had to be there.  Sure, it's possible to have some sort of acknowledgement about it years later, but at the time, it was just amazing.

[Great Hierophant]

If you're curious, I suggest giving a look at C64 demos such as Deus Ex Machina (2000) or Desert Dreams (2007). You can use an emulator such as VICE or CCS64 to watch them. Then tell me if a 8086-based PC could ever do something like this (regarding both gfx effects and music)

I don't know whether an 8086 could do something like that, but you can plug in an EGA or VGA card into an 8088 machine as well as a Sound Blasoer and Roland LAPC-I.  Demos weren't very popular until the VGA card became widespread, so it.  However, I would agree that the C64 could do very impressive things at a fraction of the price for a similarly decked out PC of the era. 

While it would be unfair or me to criticize games I have not played, I will say that anyone who thinks that the Great Gianna Sisters is a better game than Super Mario Bros. is unfit to judge games.  Totally derivative in every way, adding almost nothing and spouting poorer play control.  Fun music though. 

Maybe SID isn't the greatest sound chip of all time, but when you bought a C64, you had one.  If you bought an Apple, you needed a Mockingbird for sound, which added onto the price.  And if you had a PC, you needed a sound card.  Honestly, the majority of people I knew didn't have an MT-32 let alone an Adlib.  It wasn't until CD-ROMs became standard that my friends started having sound cards.  And when you compare SID music to the PC speaker, it really does sound great.

However, don't forget the Amiga or the Apple IIgs, which did have sound hardware that used methods superior to the SID's waveform synthesis.  Very, very little software supported the Mockingboard.  Until the Adlib, the best an PC could boast was Tandy sound.  Realsound on the PC speaker could give the SID a run for its money though since it is using digital sampling. 

[Nytegard]

However, don't forget the Amiga or the Apple IIgs, which did have sound hardware that used methods superior to the SID's waveform synthesis.  Very, very little software supported the Mockingboard.  Until the Adlib, the best an PC could boast was Tandy sound.  Realsound on the PC speaker could give the SID a run for its money though since it is using digital sampling. 

Well, the first Amiga came out 3 years after the C64, and was the company who produced it was owned by Commodore.  It was suppose to be the successor to the C64.  As for the GS, that too came out 4 years after the Commodore 64.  I don't think it's entirely fair to state computers with 4 more years of technology should be compared to each other.  And of course very little software supported the Mockingboard.  It was separate from the system and required external speakers, unheard of at the time, and pretty much external gaming peripherals were unheard of until the mid 1990's.  This is 1982 technology we're talking about.  And for the early 1980's, honestly, SID was way ahead of it's time.

[Cloudschatze]

I now have a cursor prompt. I may still end up re-seating the chips, as there are some issues with text input. It's somewhat "flaky," randomly requiring several key presses before the output appears on-screen.

The same keys or totally random? the keyboards can go bad too, an extra hard workout (hammering the keys a few times) might help that, it's probably bad contacts. If it's not consistently happening to the same keys, reseating/swapping the CIA chips sounds like the way to go.

I haven't had a chance to try it again, but it seemed to be random, and the amount of force applied to the keys didn't affect the outcome.

Which reminds me... Does the Commodore not have key input buffering?

[MichalN]

I don't know whether an 8086 could do something like that, but you can plug in an EGA or VGA card into an 8088 machine as well as a Sound Blasoer and Roland LAPC-I.

That's true - but you'd have to be comparing a PC with VGA+SB to something like Amiga 2000, not a C64. Keep in mind that the C64 was introduced in August 1982, before even the IBM XT arrived (March 1983). VGA is April 1987, Sound Blaster 1.0 is November 1989.

While it would be unfair or me to criticize games I have not played, I will say that anyone who thinks that the Great Gianna Sisters is a better game than Super Mario Bros. is unfit to judge games.

How about "Super Mario Bros. is the most overhyped game of all time"? (Personally I don't think Gianna Sisters is a very good game, but then I never liked platformers much.)

[MichalN]

Which reminds me... Does the Commodore not have key input buffering?

There is a keyboard input buffer, and it has room for 10 entries. If you have a C64 memory map, you'll see it.

[Great Hierophant]

While the SID may have been available to Commodore 64 users three to four years before Commodore released the Amiga and Apple put the IIgs on sale, the SID was not really programmed to make make music beyond what the Apple II, IBM PC, Atari 8-bit or Arcade games of the era were making, which were simple, catchy tunes.  1986 is the first year I think when game music programmers really programmed their music for the SID.  A gamer was only likely to hear this native SID music if he lived in Western Europe.