MT-32 versions... now with NEW INFO!

[Lord Nightmare]

Ok, I have two MT-32s, and have asked around about other mt-32 versions, and I've compiled a lot of the information on my wikipedia userpage. (PLEASE don't deface it, although feel free to add your own units.)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Lord_Nightmare

Here's the new info:

The MT-32 PCB-00 and MT-32 PCB-01 are IDENTICAL IN OPERATION, other than the la32 being BGA (I call it revision 0) in the 00 and QFP (revision 1) in the 01, and the 00 having the PCM-ROM split into two roms, and the 01 having one rom, and the gate array being changed.
How do I know this?
I own two MT-32s. one is a 00 and one is a 01, and BOTH OF THEM use the SAME CONTROL ROM REVISION. Contrary to what was posted in the last versions thread, the 1.07 rom has NO PCB-01 specific changes, because it runs FINE on a PCB-00.

The pcb-02/01a (or whatever it is called) on the other hand (used on any mt-32 with a version 2.x.x rom, the ones with the demo music included), IS different.
That one uses the revision 2 la32 which has the volume boosted internally instead of needing the external 'wired shifter', and it may have a larger set of control roms than the earlier versions could handle, to hold the 4 builtin musics. It also has the volume knob hooked up differently, directly to the output amplifier as opposed to the cpu. The cpu is also a 16mhz 8098 instead of a 32mhz 8092. And it DOES respond slower, according to the RWI mod manual, linked from this forum earlier.

You can also see on my page that I'm trying to get the revision numbers from the 'version screen' of all the different mt-32 revisions. I'm also looking to get all the different control and reverb rom revisions dumped so they can be properly preserved and researched. (This counts also for non mt-32 Roland LA hardware such as the D110.)

Jonathan Gevaryahu AKA Lord Nightmare
moc(t0d)liamtoh(t@)uhayravegj

[Laust]

I own two MT-32s. one is a 00 and one is a 01, and BOTH OF THEM use the SAME CONTROL ROM REVISION. Contrary to what was posted in the last versions thread, the 1.07 rom has NO PCB-01 specific changes, because it runs FINE on a PCB-00.

Not so fast. The 1.07 ROM can have hardware-specific changes and still remain backwards compatible. The fact that it runs in a rev-00 unit says nothing about the hardware changes. Try a 1.06 ROM (latest revision from the rev-00 MT-32) in a rev-01 unit, and if that works, I'll agree that there were no PCB changes beyond the physical aspect of the chips.   I don't expect this to work, however, because Roland's ROM revision guide says it won't...

BTW, the old chip is not BGA, it's PGA (the pins go through the board).

The pcb-02/01a (or whatever it is called) on the other hand (used on any mt-32 with a version 2.x.x rom, the ones with the demo music included), IS different.
That one uses the revision 2 la32 which has the volume boosted internally instead of needing the external 'wired shifter', and it may have a larger set of control roms than the earlier versions could handle, to hold the 4 builtin musics. It also has the volume knob hooked up differently, directly to the output amplifier as opposed to the cpu. The cpu is also a 16mhz 8098 instead of a 32mhz 8092. And it DOES respond slower, according to the RWI mod manual, linked from this forum earlier.

Not quite. It's true that in the pcb-02/"new board" MT-32, the volume is controlled differently, but it still goes through the CPU. I've explained it better here. (Oh yeah, the volume knob is hooked up to the CPU's AD converter. This isn't explaind in that post although it is elsewhere in that thread).

Also, the CPU is 12MHz in both revisions (it is indeed two different CPUs from the same family, however).  The 16/32MHz crystal is for the LA32 chip and related circuitry.

[Lord Nightmare]

...Try a 1.06 ROM (latest revision from the rev-00 MT-32) in a rev-01 unit, and if that works, I'll agree that there were no PCB changes beyond the physical aspect of the chips.   I don't expect this to work, however, because Roland's ROM revision guide says it won't...

If I had a copy of 1.06, I'd do it in a second, but unfortunately I do not.
Where can I get a copy of the ROM revision guide?

BTW, the old chip is not BGA, it's PGA (the pins go through the board).

Sorry, at least I tried.

Also, the CPU is 12MHz in both revisions (it is indeed two different CPUs from the same family, however).  The 16/32MHz crystal is for the LA32 chip and related circuitry.

Interesting, that means that what the RWI author said in his docs is bull***t, unless the code for the 2.x rackmount mt-32s really is lousy and doesn't respond as fast as the 1.x ones.

Thanks for bringing that information to my attention.


Jonathan Gevaryahu AKA Lord Nightmare
moc(t0d)liamtoh(t@)uhayravegj

[Laust]

Where can I get a copy of the ROM revision guide?

I was referring to this.

Interesting, that means that what the RWI author said in his docs is bull***t, unless the code for the 2.x rackmount mt-32s really is lousy and doesn't respond as fast as the 1.x ones.

Well, actually I think I can clear up the confusion now. I think he used a bad choice of words or used another definition than normally.  After posting I did some research and the difference between the two microcontrollers is that the 8096 has a 16-bit databus and the 8098 has an 8-bit one (so it takes two writes to read or write a 16-bit word). Internally they're both the same microcontroller (16 bit, same registers, instruction set, etc.), but it does mean that the 8098 will load and store data slower than its cousin.  So in that respect, it's very likely that the newer MT-32's respond slower.

It's the same situation as with the more well know 8086 and 8088 CPUs.

[NewRisingSUn]

The MT-32 PCB-00 and MT-32 PCB-01 are IDENTICAL IN OPERATION

I thought this was obvious the way I wrote the Wikipedia article. "old-type" PCB 01 is like PCB 00, except for chip consolidation.

The pcb-02/01a (or whatever it is called)

"new-type" PCB 01.

Also, the CPU is 12MHz in both revisions

And the DAC runs at 8*32,000 Hz, not 8*32,768 Hz, as claimed somewhere else.

but it does mean that the 8098 will load and store data slower than its cousin.  So in that respect, it's very likely that the newer MT-32's respond slower.

And yet it processes System Exclusive Messages way more quickly and drops fewer voices than the earlier CPU, but that may well be due to more optimized code.

[Lord Nightmare]

I apologize for the 32768 vs 32000 mixup on VOGONS, I incorrectly thought a power of 2 xtal was divided down for the DAC driving.

Jonathan Gevaryahu AKA Lord Nightmare
moc(t0d)liamtoh(t@)uhayravegj

[Laust]

Your reasoning was correct, but perhaps you forgot that also the division should be binary (power of two)

eg: 32.768MHz divided by 2^10 = 32768KHz / 1024 = 32KHz.

[Lord Nightmare]

Curse you, powers of 2! You've betrayed me!


Jonathan Gevaryahu AKA Lord Nightmare
moc(t0d)liamtoh(t@)uhayravegj

[Rhizome]

I'm still thinking about that offer of you dumping the 1.06 ROM from my MT-32 

[Cloudschatze]

Where is the new information...?

The MT-32 PCB-00 and [Cloudschatze: "oldtype"] MT-32 PCB-01 are IDENTICAL IN OPERATION...

This is stated in the second-edition service notes. In addition, I've found that the same sound-generation "bugs" are present in both.

[Lord Nightmare]

Well, its new information to ME, and to at LEAST one other person on this board who's post I was reading earlier.

Service notes? Where do you get those?
Dammit, why does everyone here have all these mt-32 docs I've never even heard of?

Jonathan Gevaryahu AKA Lord Nightmare
moc(t0d)liamtoh(t@)uhayravegj

[Cloudschatze]

Service notes? Where do you get those?

Several of mine came from eBay, but the majority were purchased from Roland, pre 2005.

Before 2005, you could buy service notes from Roland in their original, printed format. Since going "paperless" the same price now nets you a PDF printout, scaled-down to black-and-white, letter-size format. Lame, yes.

I hope to get the original copies scanned into PDF at some point, as soon as I discover a nice way to stitch images.

[Lord Nightmare]

you can use "autopano pro" to automatically 'panorama' together a several image block. even the shareware version can save a panorama'd image like that, even if the author CLAIMS it cannot (it does it automatically by default!)

Lord Nightmare

[Cloudschatze]

I appreciate the suggestion. I'm probably better off sticking with Photoshop, though I need to become savvy enough to use it properly.