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NewRisingSUn
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« on: September 14, 2007, 01:50:46 AM »

http://www.brightlightsfilm.com/46/music.htm

I would like to solicit your opinions on that piece.
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Alistair
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« Reply #1 on: September 14, 2007, 02:30:53 AM »

I was about to ask if you wrote it, but then I realised that wasn't quite your name Wink

I'll be honest- I read a few paragraphs, looked at how much there was to go, and gave up. Talk about metaphor overload!

That's called, in his terms anyway, "constructing English into a deconstructed phrasology, yet with an optimum verbosity".

- Alistair
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mace
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« Reply #2 on: September 14, 2007, 06:23:03 AM »

It is a unpleasant read, the text does not flow because of the, what I like to call, language overuse.

 
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« Reply #3 on: September 14, 2007, 01:55:13 PM »

I simply don't understand a word and lack the motivation to translate it word by word. I don't know, if I am too dumb for that text. Either that or there's something wrong with the article. It really didn't reach me.

In a hacking attempt, you might be able to use this article as a dictionary attack. :-)
« Last Edit: September 14, 2007, 02:00:37 PM by Locutus » Logged

Tom
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« Reply #4 on: September 14, 2007, 03:59:05 PM »

It IS a very lengthy read, but looks to be interesting.  After reading a couple of paragraphs, I was hoping to learn what the author was trying to convey, but I'm still not sure.  Guess I'll have to read the whole thing...when I have an hour to spare.  Undecided
« Last Edit: September 14, 2007, 03:59:34 PM by Tom » Logged

Cloudschatze
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« Reply #5 on: September 14, 2007, 04:30:54 PM »

Well, I'm not sure if I came away with everything that I should have - Over twenty pages on a subject for which I don't feel there is a known formula. In fact, the author admits this with the following:

Quote
To this point, I have deliberately, indeed coyly, avoided the question my discussion begs: if conventionally dissonant music is insufficient, exactly what kinds of music can offer an enlightening counterpoint? The answer may be only a shy, uncatchable phantom, for, as we’ve said at the beginning, what makes a counterpoint effective lies in judgment and execution, not theory or mode alone.

At the (blessed) conclusion, the author questions how best to overthrow congruity. I'm not sure what the answer is. Music is strange, in that it's often intrinsically tied to emotion, be it of an evocative or provocative nature. Given the author's previous statement, I may completely disagree with what he feels is correct judgement in the execution.

Perhaps the answer lies in better collaboration between the film-maker and composer. It's unfortunate, but in many instances, you're not hearing the composer's original intent for the score. There is a lot of shuffling and editing that occurs after the fact, which the author fails to mention, vilifying the composer instead. Furthermore, such collaboration might, at least, result in better integration of the "Good Incongruity" spoken of.
 
The author also fails to mention films that have been re-scored, for better or worse, and would therefore illustrate a lot of what he rambles on about. Legend, with its original, orchestral score by Jerry Goldsmith, has counterpoint (depending on your perspective) with a second score, composed by Tangerine Dream.

It's a shame the article is a few years old. I'd like to know if the author has anything to say about Stranger Than Fiction.

I feel that a lot of what the author seeks has been done, to some extent, in computer and video games. Aubrey Hodges' soundtrack to Quest for Glory IV is an obvious example.

...

There, with that out of the way, I would like to concur with what has already been said. This is one of the worst pieces I've ever read. I skimmed over a few of his other articles, and they're just as bombastic and self-aggrandizing. The author obviously does not write for an audience, or, if he does, and should I ever chance to be anywhere within earshot of that audience, I would hope to distance myself as quickly as possible. Smiley

I'm also reminded that once, in an Advanced English class, I turned in a paper that was dropped two letter-grades due to "excessive wordiness." Andrew Grossman would have failed the class.

So, now I want to know your opinion. Smiley
« Last Edit: September 14, 2007, 05:42:49 PM by Cloudschatze » Logged
NewRisingSUn
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« Reply #6 on: September 14, 2007, 05:53:18 PM »

Quote from: Cloudschatze
So, now I want to know your opinion.
(1) It's certainly badly written --- loaded with pretentious metaphors, spelling-bee-worthy loanwoards, obscure references, pointless digressions and ridiculous political claims. Looking at the author's biography, it is plain to me why: he embraces critical theory in particular, rooted in Marxist epistemology (and utter and complete BS in its entirety, IMO). If you ever had to read through critical theory/postmodern drivel, you'll always recognize that style.  Angry

(2) Defining the terms: I'm not sure my understanding of "congruity" (is that anything like "congruence"?) and "counterpoint" are like the author's. I understand "congruence" here as the score expressing musically the same what the image expresses visually, and "counterpoint" as the opposite.

"Congruence" would mean happy music for a wedding, sad music for a funeral. "Counterpoint" would be sad music for a wedding, making the music a more autonomous part of the experience, in a sense commenting the visuals, as if saying "yeah, it might look happy, but it's actually really sad because...".

(3) Some film music is indeed too "congruent", parroting musically what is already seen. Since he mentions John Williams: One reason why the music to the Star Wars prequels is so boring (IMO, in addition to those films themselves being bad) is too much congruence with the visuals, whereas in the old trilogy the music is often the opposite of what is seen --- Princess Leia is seen as a feisty chick with no bra and a gun, "useful as a can opener" as someone said, whereas the music describes her as the innocent tender "damsel in distress", leading to an ironical counterpoint. The whole Star Wars IV music is indeed designed as a counterpoint: out-of-this-world visuals of a galaxy far away set to a traditional Korngold-like film score --- unfamiliar/nontraditional visuals contrasted with familiar/traditional music.

(4) It remains to be asked whether composers should always provide "counterpoint" or "congruence". The composer provides a service to his client, the producer/director, giving what is being asked of him. If the director wants counterpoint, he'll get it; if he wants congruence, he'll get it.

That (arguably) too many films reduce music to parroting the visuals is either intentional or shows that the director isn't aware that music can do more than that. Blame the producer/director.

(5) But those are very banal observations, not worthy of a twenty-page article. Of course, long-winded tracts about trivial matters are a staple of all post-modern writing. I hope my little diatribe here is at least comprehensible.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2007, 06:09:29 PM by NewRisingSUn » Logged
Alistair
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« Reply #7 on: September 15, 2007, 02:31:33 AM »

Well, how do you know Williams wasn't asked by Lucas/et al to write a 'typical' score where the love interest gets a 'love theme', even if she happens to be feisty Leia.


I'm a big fan of James Bond scores, and there's been lots of cases of the directors/producers axing music, or leaving scenes out of the film (and the music is dropped too), etc.

For example, On Her Majesty's Secret Service has music that doesn't make it in the film simply because the director felt that 'there was too much music'. Tongue

- Alistair
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Cloudschatze
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« Reply #8 on: September 18, 2007, 12:24:54 AM »

(4) It remains to be asked whether composers should always provide "counterpoint" or "congruence".

Exactly, and whatever the outcome, the decision will remain forevermore subject to (someone's) opinion.

I'll have to pay more attention when I watch movies from now on. If nothing else, I may find another twenty pages of material to complain about. Smiley
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Great Hierophant
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« Reply #9 on: September 21, 2007, 12:56:47 AM »

Typical scholarly journalesque, the author is trying too hard to sound sophisticated and academic.  No one can really grasp the author's argument, one reader's interpretation may be completely different from another reader's.  It is a failure if more time is spent determining what the author is trying to say than considering what the author is actually saying.  No one really wants to read the whole article, at best it a sentence or two will be quoted from it in later works.

When I was an editor for a scholarly journal, I would constantly ask the people whose work I was editing, "what does that mean", "how does that follow", "could you give real examples", "could you simplify that".  Unfortunately, you could not often-times avoid technical terms, but it is important to use those terms in an accepted and consistent manner.  A good test of an article's ability to communicate is to gather a group of students in your field and read parts of it to them.  If they cannot follow it, then you need to edit your piece again. 
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Ari
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« Reply #10 on: September 21, 2007, 08:19:02 AM »

"Congruence" would mean happy music for a wedding, sad music for a funeral. "Counterpoint" would be sad music for a wedding, making the music a more autonomous part of the experience, in a sense commenting the visuals, as if saying "yeah, it might look happy, but it's actually really sad because...".

Kind of like these two, huh?  Smiley
1, 2
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NewRisingSUn
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« Reply #11 on: September 21, 2007, 11:20:53 AM »

Quote from: Ari
Kind of like these two, huh?
Not really, because #1 is actually source music, and #2 is highly congruent.
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Ari
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« Reply #12 on: September 21, 2007, 11:56:08 AM »

I took those two examples as opposites - the first as a counterpoint, and the second as congruent.
What do you mean by "source music"?

And it was a joke of sorts, not really meant as a serious example.   Wink
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NewRisingSUn
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« Reply #13 on: September 21, 2007, 01:33:06 PM »

Quote from: Ari
What do you mean by "source music"?
Music that is part of the narrative. For example, when Alexander and Valanice talk in the intro, there's no actual guitar player in the room, so that's not source music, not part of the narrative. But when the organ plays the wedding music, it says that Alexander hears some music, so it's part of the narrative itself.

Source music therefore is neither counterpoint nor congruent.
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Ari
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« Reply #14 on: September 21, 2007, 01:41:09 PM »

I guess you're right. I didn't remember it said he could hear the music, but now that you mention it, I do.
Hmm... It is a little weird, though, that the music is being played at a minor key, considering that the Grand Vizier is trying to get away with a false wedding to a false bride... Wink
« Last Edit: September 22, 2007, 07:46:39 AM by Ari » Logged

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« Reply #15 on: September 22, 2007, 12:42:25 AM »

Actually, the wedding march from KQ6 is a good example of why I think even this idea of congruent and contrapuntal music, though obvious and useful up to a point, can get somewhat murky.

But first, since the source music issue came up, let me tangentially address that: Technically, yes, it is source music, but the harmonies have been made minor, if I recall correctly (I didn't re-listen, since the computer I'm at right now doesn't handle OGGs).  Because of that alteration, Ari has a point, too.  It is a different arrangement than Wagner's original Wedding March*, which left unaltered would have been the obvious choice if the intent was merely to sound traditional.  By "corrupting" the wedding march, the composer (Chris Braymen) adds a dash of commentary, regardless of whether it is literally what the participants in the wedding are hearing.

So I think even though this is source music, we might still be able to call it a counterpoint to the expected emotions of stately approval or joy at a wedding.  On the other hand, it is perfectly congruent with the way Alexander reacts to the wedding.

Similarly, I like the Princess Leia example a lot, though even there (and memory fails me, so please correct me if I am in error), isn't it most frequently used in love scenes with Han?  If so, doesn't that mean that it is most often used when it is, if not perfectly congruent, at least as congruent as it will ever be?  In other words, it highlights Leia's softer side whenever that is visible.  Or am I forgetting and does it play meaningfully in action scenes as well--the way that, say, the Force theme does?  (Perhaps it appears in Return of the Jedi during the Jabba sequence?)

To bring in another example that the author himself mentions: people often like to cite Anton Karas' zither music for The Third Man as a counterintuitive approach to scoring that kind of film.  If convention alone determines what is intuitive and counterintuitive, they have a point: There aren't a lot of other movies of this kind (or of any other kind) with a score like that.  However, the author seems to want to claim this as contrapuntal, and while I understand what he has in mind, even there, I have some slight reservations upon reflection.  Watching the Ferris Wheel sequence, I can't help but feel that the jaunty little tune fits Harry Lime's blithe disregard for others rather perfectly.  Admittedly, though, this is hardly the only scene in which that music plays.

I ask these as preliminary questions for clarity before I begin to comment on the article as a whole.  (I probably won't be able to really discuss this until Sunday.)  Where my thinking is currently headed is this: I agree that film music more often simply underscores an emotion already present in the scene, rather than commenting in any other meaningful way upon it.  And I have no problem saying film music should not just do this sort of musical highlighting, but should add something to what the audience is seeing.  However, the more I contemplate this, the more doubtful I become that using music as a counterpoint is either the only or the best way of doing that.  Instead, I think music can be more or less contrapuntal as a matter of degree, depending on the needs of the scene.  Even congruent music can add something that the scene without music lacks, like tension.  Highly contrapuntal music, like the irony of sublime and peaceful music during a scene with great violence, is a special effect that is diminished if used all the time.  And if it's nuance or ambiguity you want then the best choice, actually, is often to leave the scene unscored.

Basically, I suspect the author and I disagree on one of our first principles.  I think of film music almost solely in terms of its contribution to dramatic effect, but some of the authors' remarks lead me to suspect that he is more interested in intellectual stimulation as well.  When he proposes that Amadeus might be more interesting with Salieri's music underneath, or that of another composer entirely, wouldn't the irony or added perspective provided by that effect depend on the audience being aware of whose music they are hearing?  And therefore, wouldn't it only gain added effect intellectually, rather than through the rhetorical effects of the music itself?

On the other hand, deliberately provocative suggestions like switching around the character associations of harmonica and strings in Once Upon a Time in the West make me wonder if the heart of the author's point isn't just "don't get too complacent and conventional."

-Luke

* The processional, not to be confused--as I did a moment ago--with Mendelssohn's recessional.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2007, 01:46:39 AM by Caliburn » Logged
Alistair
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« Reply #16 on: September 22, 2007, 04:30:57 AM »

The 'evil' wedding march in KQ6 is obviously used to demonstrate a feeling of 'urgency' to Alexander's situation- now it's much more real and *imminent*, the possibility that the Vizier might actually marry Cassima- and soon.


I could say a lot, but I've got work to do, and football to watch. This is pretty murky, as people have said.

- Alistair
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NewRisingSUn
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« Reply #17 on: September 22, 2007, 10:17:17 AM »

Quote from: Caliburn
isn't it most frequently used in love scenes with Han?
Leia's Theme is never used in love scenes with Han; their love has its own theme.
Quote from: Caliburn
Highly contrapuntal music, like the irony of sublime and peaceful music during a scene with great violence, is a special effect that is diminished if used all the time.
True.
Quote from: Caliburn
but some of the authors' remarks lead me to suspect that he is more interested in intellectual stimulation as well.
What Grossman fails to see is that with music for films, the composer doesn't have the audience's full attention because the music listerner is also a dialogue listener, a sound effects listener and a viewer. Composing for symphonies doesn't have that problem, and opera only marginally so.
This problem requires the music, in order to be effective, to be more straightforward in its symbols, and thus often more congruent.
Quote from: Caliburn
make me wonder if the heart of the author's point isn't just "don't get too complacent and conventional."
He babbles on about "subversion"; I don't even know what that means in this context. Subversion normally means overthrowing a government or used metaphorically, overthrowing established beliefs. I don't know what film music is supposed to overthrow and why it is supposed to do that.
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« Reply #18 on: September 25, 2007, 03:57:25 AM »

It's a shame the article is a few years old. I'd like to know if the author has anything to say about Stranger Than Fiction.

What about it do you have in mind, Cloudschatze?  I've seen the film, but I don't remember the score all that well, so you'll have to remind me.

Leia's Theme is never used in love scenes with Han; their love has its own theme.

Ah, that was my problem.  I had entirely the wrong theme in mind: the love theme, as you said, NRS.  Clearly it has been too long since I last watched Star Wars or listened to the music.  A brief refresher shows me that you are quite right about the actual Princess Leia Theme serving as a damsel-in-distress-type ruse.  Obviously I haven't had time to consider all the places where it crops up in the films and how congruent or incongruent each appearance is, but it's an interesting point that I'll have to keep an ear open for if and when I watch the films again.

Quote
What Grossman fails to see is that with music for films, the composer doesn't have the audience's full attention because the music listerner is also a dialogue listener, a sound effects listener and a viewer. Composing for symphonies doesn't have that problem, and opera only marginally so.
This problem requires the music, in order to be effective, to be more straightforward in its symbols, and thus often more congruent.

Right.  The most interesting of his ideas, to me, were the ones that struck me as most likely to be appreciable to the audience.  Several others seemed like they would mainly please the lucky graduate students who could use them as fodder for their theses.

Quote
He babbles on about "subversion"; I don't even know what that means in this context. Subversion normally means overthrowing a government or used metaphorically, overthrowing established beliefs. I don't know what film music is supposed to overthrow and why it is supposed to do that.

Yeah, that's where I really think he just means overthrowing musical associations that have become conventional.  That's why he gets so unreasonably excited at the prospect of, say, scoring Alien with African music.  Not because it brings out heretofore unrealized hidden dimensions in the film itself, but simply because it's unusual (and, therefore, apparently good) to score a sci-fi/horror film with African music.

I truly wished to believe that he did believe such atypical associations would reveal something latent in the film, but whether he consciously believes that or not, it is clear that unconsciously he does not.  How else can he propose that the reason Stravinsky would be a richer alternative to Mozart in Amadeus is because hearing the progression of Stravinsky's career "would first crush Mozartian classicism, and then rebuild it in the form of the neoclassicism of Stravinsky’s late opera".  Maybe so but 1) you could hear this progression equally effectively just by listening to Stravinsky separately from the film altogether 2) Amadeus has nothing whatsoever to do with the breakdown and re-invention of Mozartian classicism.  If he had suggested that using Stravinsky would illuminate something about the incompatibility of genius with the rest of society, the favoritism of God, how the seed of envy is admiration, or any other idea that could reasonably be claimed as a theme of the film, I would understand.  The Salieri example might even have accomplished this, though I still argue this depends too much on the intervention of the intellect, but the author seems less enthused with this possibility because it only expresses the psychology of the character.  Stravinsky, apparently, allows for the attitude of the director to be expressed, but it would be a pretty poor director indeed who would squander this musical opportunity by using it to express an attitude on the development of Stravinsky's career when that is clearly so irrelevant to the film's other intentions.  Similarly, I hope the film Leaves from Satan's Book that he mentions actually has something to do with the American Revolution; otherwise, I have the same complaint.  I don't see the virtue of having the music lead the listener off into the contemplation of tangents.

To be clear, I have nothing against seeing what would happen if African music was used for Alien.  It might actually work quite delightfully.  But if it did, it would be, in my opinion, because of the aptness of that music's rhetorical effects (what people usually call its emotional effect, but I think emotion is too narrow an account of what it does to the listener) to the dramatic intentions of the film.  It wouldn't be because it makes people contemplate the intellectual incongruency and then come to some epiphany about Africa and aliens.

Also, when proposing this alternative to the Alien score and other such fancies, he raises a question that I think he would have done well to answer:

"Will the meanings of a musical non sequitur be an antirealist, antinaturalist liberation from adjectival consonances, or a muddy pathway to consonances yet to be conventionalized?"

Eliminating the pretentious jargon from his language I take this to say: "If a composer comes up with an atypical musical association for a certain type of scene or film, will it help to free us from our bondage to cliched musical associations, or will it just become a new cliche in the long run?"  Grossman doesn't answer this, and instead moves on to his litany of such possibilities, but historically the answer seems pretty clear.  Yes, such atypical associations eventually become typical (we've heard the same thing before), then conventional (we now expect it to be this way), then cliche (we are desperate for something new).  Not always, of course, because not every innovation is imitated, but consider:

1) Thomas Newman's quirky percussive accompaniment to American Beauty, which was a convention-breaking choice at the time, but which style quickly became a mainstay of (supposedly) edgy Indywood pictures.  Arguably, this was just a reapplication of stuff Newman was doing in the 80s for comedies like Real Genius, just moved to a different film genre, and played on world instruments instead of synthesizers.  But dramas had not, up to that point, been scored this way, unless you count passing moments in earlier Newman scores like The Green Mile.
2) Use of the theremin and other electronic instruments in 1950s science fiction films.  (Incidentally, the first use of a theremin in film had an entirely different association.  Miklos Rozsa used it in Billy Wilder's The Lost Weekend during the binging alcoholic main character's hallucinatory dream sequences.  It was still a signal of the strange and otherworldly, though.)
3) Tan Dun-like percussion added into action sequences following the success of Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon (a brief fad that seems to have ended, but worth noting).
4) There are probably many better examples to be found amongst older genre scores, but I'm not well-versed enough in all this history to say.  For example, did western scoring conventions change at all after Elmer Bernstein's score to The Magnificent Seven?

Certainly that doesn't mean such innovations are pointless.  They do at least temporarily reinvigorate their genres and broaden the scope of what film scorers will do.  But a lot of best loved scores are just innovations that, by the luck of the draw or by the difficulty of emulation, happened not to be imitated so much that they became conventional:

1) Elmer Bernstein's "a child's adult music" for To Kill a Mockingbird, if that famous phrase helps you figure out which aspects of that score I'm talking about.  Basically, not the Aaron Copeland-esque stuff, which is much more conventional, if still nice.
2) Ennio Morricone's spaghetti western music, which is easier to parody than it is to re-apply to other films, so my impression is that it hasn't been that heavily imitated with serious intentions.
3) Bernard Herrmann's music for the 60s Hitchcock films.  This is probably the one where it surprises me the most that it wasn't more often copied.  It gets an "homage" now and then, like the opening credits of Signs, but not such consistent imitation that it has become the conventional way to score psychological thrillers.
4) Jerry Goldsmith's avant-garde approach in his earlier years to films like Planet of the Apes and The Omen.
5) The chanting, somewhat tribal, somewhat industrial symphonic suite that Geinoh Yamashirogumi (an ensemble, not an individual) created for Akira.

And so on.

Such film scores greatly enrich the field, but ironically the very thing that prevents them from being run into the ground through imitation will also of course prevent them from changing the course of film music at large, won't it?  We will naturally see much more influence from easier-to-emulate composers like John Williams, James Horner, Hans Zimmer (in Media Ventures/Jerry Bruckheimer mode, especially) than we will ever see from scores like those above, which are either just plain harder to emulate or, more likely, narrower in their appropriateness so that no one finds the right films in which to emulate them.  I'm not saying this predominance of the conventional is a good thing or a bad thing, just that it seems inevitable to me.

The more innovations we can come up with to broaden the palette of film scoring the better, in my opinion, with the crucial qualification that such innovations must then be appropriately applied so that they enhance rather than detract or distract from the film.  However, I'm not expecting these innovations to come in huge revolutions, only in small assertions of independence.  To me, that just makes them more worth celebrating when they happen.  And, in the meantime, it doesn't necessarily make more conventional approaches as artistically vacuous as the author seems to fear.

I wonder, if this weren't so focused on the Grand Academic Idea, whether two more interesting and more practical essays could be written on related themes:

1) What the industry would need to do to encourage more individual creativity among film composers
2) How to decide about the kinds of congruence or incongruence we might want for a particular scene or an entire film

-Luke
« Last Edit: September 25, 2007, 04:26:22 AM by Caliburn » Logged
Cloudschatze
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« Reply #19 on: September 25, 2007, 03:47:34 PM »

It's a shame the article is a few years old. I'd like to know if the author has anything to say about Stranger Than Fiction.

What about it do you have in mind, Cloudschatze?  I've seen the film, but I don't remember the score all that well, so you'll have to remind me.

See it again, but pay attention to when the music is introduced.
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