Enhanced vs Unmodified soundtracks

[NewRisingSUn]

That's not fair, we'll need a MIDI version of the same piece

The piece is called "The Rebel Army" and is from Final Fantasy II (Japanese). Maybe I can find a good MIDI arrangement on some video game music site.
It's not the melody itself that's imporant, it's those envelopes that I find exhilarating.

NRS, I don't know if you've heard Garritan Personal Orchestra

No, but since you mentioned it, I have listened to a few pieces on their demo page. Too bad the most interesting examples from "Andy Brick" are dead links.
Beethoven's 5th symphony I (Allegro con brio) sounds underwhelming in the strings, way too pad-like. In fact, it sounds to me as if someone sampled a violin attack, but then used a synthesizer for the rest, basically LA-like. Compare to the beginning of Herbert von Karajan's recording --- obviously it's a comparison of apples and oranges, but even leaving the maestro's performance out of the equation and only considering the instruments themselves, the Garritan strings still pale compared to the real thing.

Having gone through the "audition" Flash demo, I must say I am generally underwhelmed with the strings; the Violin sounds best at high notes, but loses a lot in the mid range, possible because it only uses the same one waveform? I however like the trumpet at least when played at low volumes. I don't know how it sounds loud. The trombone is missing in the lower end. The horns seem nice, in particular the stopped horn. The timpani sounds too close and has too little bass.

All in all, a mixed bag in my opinion. Of course, those demos may not be truly indicative of its full potential, but I can only judge what's offered.

[Alistair]

I'll hunt down a MIDI and maybe record something soon.

On Garritan, I haven't had enough opportunities to utilise it and I guess, get used to it- since the volume isn't done through just volume controllers, but expression or something weird. Confused the hell out of me, and not all patches will play all notes (most won't, in fact). So it's not something I can audition for use on a mixed enhanced CD like I would like to.

The main reason is that it doesn't synch up with the MIDI right

Anyway, if you have a MIDI version in mind, let me know.

- Alistair

[Cloudschatze]

A friendly challenge to everyone with a "super-stringy" sound module:
Here is a very nice string section from a real orchestra. See how close you can get your sound module to sound like that. I've never heard anything like that from a sound module, but maybe I just didn't listen to the right tracks...

The more-realistic MIDI reproductions tend to result from the use of high-quality samples and MIDI editing skills. I don't claim to have much of the latter, but I do have some pretty decent samples. 

So, does this challenge include the use of sample CDs, or just the onboard samples?


I wish I could claim to have done these two Roland sample CD demonstrations:
Roland L-CDP-05 Solo Strings
Roland L-CDP-13 String Sections

[Tom]

Those are excellent strings!!!  Very nice indeed.

Back when I first started working with Sierra MIDI files, and back when I had my first Sound Canvas, I was fascinated with the Leisure Suit Larry 3 soundtrack and Mike Dana's work.  The only problem I had with it was...the awful MT-32 piano...which is used so much in many of the songs.  That soundtrack became one of my favorite 'enhancements', though there wasn't much 'enhancing' beyond some additional SC-55 strings and...replacing all of the MT-32 piano tracks with the SC-55's piano.  I've yet to hear anyone say they actually prefer the MT-32's piano over any other synthesized piano.  Nor do I feel replacing it with a better piano sound takes away any of the soundtrack's original character.  This is one soundtrack that I definitely prefer listening to the 'enhanced' version, based on the substituted piano, alone.

Though I can't speak for David or Alistair, 'enhancing' has never simply meant exchanging one instrument for another when I work on a MIDI file.  I don't simply "swap instruments" because I think it sounds better.  The "overall sound design" is always the priority in my remixes, since the enhancement won't work if the music's integrity is lost.  But I DON'T adhere to that with re-arrangements, since I'm looking at my own sound design, not trying to copy the original artist's concepts.  But with remixes, the SC-8820's oboe (for example) might not work as well as the MT-32's in a given song, because it stands out too harshly -- too out there, and doesn't meld with the other sounds as well as the original did.  So, I don't always change things -- in fact, most often, the sounds in one of my 'enhanced versions' are the original sounds.  Plus, I may not agree with another's concept of "sound design", so I base it on my own experience as a musician.

I'm very excited about this new project of providing both original and enhanced versions for download.  (Please be patient, though ... this is going to take some time to do.)  At this time, I'm not looking at also providing the original AdLib and/or SoundBlaster versions as well, but it would be nice to eventually do that.  I've heard any number of times from people who actually prefer the FM synth versions of Sierra soundtracks.  (I'm not one of them.)

[Ari]

Two things:
The first, regarding non-enhanced recordings, I was planning on using my Roland CM-64 for this project, as this is the only piece of gear I have with me at the moment. My MT-32 is at my parents' place, connected to my main computer, and I'm not there very often.
I know there are subtle differences between the MT-32 and the CM-32L/CM-64, and even between the various versions of the MT-32 itself, so I'm wondering if this is an issue or not.

Regarding Adlib versions of Sierra soundtracks, I personally think most of them are pretty bad (The only exception I can think of is Zeliard), but it might be nice to compare between the versions, like they did in "Live from the Sierra Lounge" demo tape. But again the question arises: should a genuine Adlib be used, or is a Soundblaster good enough, or even the DosBox emulation or Adplug .

[Cloudschatze]

Regarding Adlib versions of Sierra soundtracks, I personally think most of them are pretty bad...

In stereo, and with a splash of reverb, they're actually quite nice.

But again the question arises: should a genuine Adlib be used, or is a Soundblaster good enough, or even the DosBox emulation or Adplug .

I've had the same thought. The solution I've gone with is to use an OPL-based AWE32, add a bit of reverb, flatten-out the EMU8000's EQ, and capture the digital output. Whether this is "enhancing" or not is debatable.

[Ari]

This also means recording entire soundtracks in FM format. I wonder who'd jump at the opportunity to do that... 

[Alistair]

Oh god, FM soundtracks No comment. I'll just say, leave that to the Adlib music archive and the like.

Back when I first started working with Sierra MIDI files, and back when I had my first Sound Canvas, I was fascinated with the Leisure Suit Larry 3 soundtrack and Mike Dana's work.  The only problem I had with it was...the awful MT-32 piano...which is used so much in many of the songs.  That soundtrack became one of my favorite 'enhancements', though there wasn't much 'enhancing' beyond some additional SC-55 strings and...replacing all of the MT-32 piano tracks with the SC-55's piano.  I've yet to hear anyone say they actually prefer the MT-32's piano over any other synthesized piano.  Nor do I feel replacing it with a better piano sound takes away any of the soundtrack's original character.  This is one soundtrack that I definitely prefer listening to the 'enhanced' version, based on the substituted piano, alone.

Yeah, Larry 3's piano tracks are nasty The MT-32 is superb in it, though.

Yeah, I love what you did with it and some of the same things you did with the mix tracks in LSL6. Works really nicely.

Don't forget, a lot of people wanting to hear originals is purely for nostalgic reasons and not for sound quality reasons. It's not a rational, objective thing we're talking about here. In other words, people obviously want the MT-32, piano and all. But it's nostalgia and 'completism', not quality or listening desirability, that's driving these requests.

I ageree with your last few comments there though, of course

Though I can't speak for David or Alistair, 'enhancing' has never simply meant exchanging one instrument for another when I work on a MIDI file.  I don't simply "swap instruments" because I think it sounds better.  The "overall sound design" is always the priority in my remixes, since the enhancement won't work if the music's integrity is lost.  But I DON'T adhere to that with re-arrangements, since I'm looking at my own sound design, not trying to copy the original artist's concepts.  But with remixes, the SC-8820's oboe (for example) might not work as well as the MT-32's in a given song, because it stands out too harshly -- too out there, and doesn't meld with the other sounds as well as the original did.  So, I don't always change things -- in fact, most often, the sounds in one of my 'enhanced versions' are the original sounds.  Plus, I may not agree with another's concept of "sound design", so I base it on my own experience as a musician.

No, of course not. Swapping instruments solely is a pointless exercise. It's about the overall design Tom mentions, and it's about fixing panning and reverb so the track sounds nicer, and changing and mixing instruments while trying to retain the original feel of the mix. If you end up with it sounding alien to the original, or that something's missing, it's hardly an 'enhancement' after all.

Ditto with me, I mainly use the original MT-32 or SC-55 tracks with a 'bit extra'. It's like, building on what's already there to make a more enjoyable listening experience, not trying to fundamentally alter it.


Ari: Good luck to you with that

Although, I've been talking on the SMC forums for a while now about including some original scores, I might do it with FPFP and my secret project.

- Alistair

[Doctor Creep]

(...)
Sanger is the exception, but he's non-Sierra. He loved using the SC-55 because it suits his style of composing. And he used it well. Another example is Ron Saltmarsh, who composed for Noctropolis- the best SC-55 score I've ever heard.

Thanks for the tip! I checked this one out using Dosbox + my SC-55! Sounds great! Never heard that one before. Can you recommend other "best SS-55 ever" (non sierra) treasures? My favourites are f.a. Descent, Privateer, Terminator (title theme!) and Creature Shock so far... (sorry for getting OT for a slight moment )

Well hopefully, Ari and I will be able to satisfy everyone's taste in Sierra soundtracks.  We are currently discussing adding straight, non-enhanced recordings of Sierra's soundtracks to these pages.  Since I have the server space, that won't be an issue.  But I've also just begun another total website revamp (it's about time!) which will take up all of my time to accomplish.  Over 100 pages with thousands of links.  Much will depend on Ari for this non-enhancement project, so ... stay tuned.
 

Fantastic!   Looking forward especially to the pure MT-32 recordings of Police Quest 3 and Space Quest 4....

Lutz

[NewRisingSUn]

Oh god, FM soundtracks

Call me crazy, everyone, but the first time I heard SQ3 on MT-32, I was actually kind of disappointed and liked the Adlib output better. It took me some time to appreciate the merits of the original Roland piece. Of course, that was 15 years ago...

[Alistair]

Actually, I first played SQ3 with my AWE32 (FM Synthesis, not GM), and really liked the Adlib title theme. I think the MT-32 theme is great, but I actually agree, the Adlib version has something special.

But that's more like the exception that proves the rule I don't think Robot Garbage Freighter or The Black Hole would translate well into Adlib (although I honestly don't remember).



Lutz:

Thanks for the tip! I checked this one out using Dosbox + my SC-55! Sounds great! Never heard that one before. Can you recommend other "best SS-55 ever" (non sierra) treasures? My favourites are f.a. Descent, Privateer, Terminator (title theme!) and Creature Shock so far... (sorry for getting OT for a slight moment

Noctropolis is great, yeah

Others include The 7th Guest, and Discworld 1. Can't think of any others off the top of my head.

Also, for the moment, you can enjoy the SQ4 soundtrack in MP3 format at my website (well, a link is on my website, and I recorded it).

- Alistair

[Doctor Creep]

Thanks for the SQ4 Tip! The SQ4 tracks are absolutely stunning - real sort of movie sound(fx)tracks... btw - one of the first games ever I play with my LAPC-1 back in the early 90s.... Sooo cool - just listen (again...)...

http://wiw.org/~jess/multimedia/14-%20Space%20Quest%20IV%20(MT-32)-%20Travelling%20Through%20Time.mp3

http://wiw.org/~jess/multimedia/15-%20Space%20Quest%20IV%20(MT-32)-%20Planet%20Ortega%20(Roger's%20Cooked-%20Death%202).mp3

http://wiw.org/~jess/multimedia/16-%20Space%20Quest%20IV%20(MT-32)-%20Planet%20Estros.mp3

Yeah I know 7th Guest - it's great  - I'll check Discworld...


Lutz

[Ari]

Actually, I first played SQ3 with my AWE32 (FM Synthesis, not GM), and really liked the Adlib title theme. I think the MT-32 theme is great, but I actually agree, the Adlib version has something special.

But that's more like the exception that proves the rule I don't think Robot Garbage Freighter or The Black Hole would translate well into Adlib (although I honestly don't remember).

I've always felt it sounded a little too "tinny"...
SQ3 intro
The drums are especially bad, IMO.

[shad0wfax]

Though I can't speak for David or Alistair, 'enhancing' has never simply meant exchanging one instrument for another when I work on a MIDI file.  I don't simply "swap instruments" because I think it sounds better.  The "overall sound design" is always the priority in my remixes, since the enhancement won't work if the music's integrity is lost.  But I DON'T adhere to that with re-arrangements, since I'm looking at my own sound design, not trying to copy the original artist's concepts.  But with remixes, the SC-8820's oboe (for example) might not work as well as the MT-32's in a given song, because it stands out too harshly -- too out there, and doesn't meld with the other sounds as well as the original did.  So, I don't always change things -- in fact, most often, the sounds in one of my 'enhanced versions' are the original sounds.  Plus, I may not agree with another's concept of "sound design", so I base it on my own experience as a musician.

No, of course not. Swapping instruments solely is a pointless exercise. It's about the overall design Tom mentions, and it's about fixing panning and reverb so the track sounds nicer, and changing and mixing instruments while trying to retain the original feel of the mix. If you end up with it sounding alien to the original, or that something's missing, it's hardly an 'enhancement' after all.

Totally agreed. Even when the aim is simply using "better versions" of the same instrument, is not as simple as exchanging one patch for another. As Alistair points out, there's much work to do, that has to be done mainly "by hand", and which affects volumes, panning, reverb, and most of all IMO, velocity. Older synths tend to have limited timbre variations regardless of the velocity changes, but modern synths with more sophisticated synthesis engines and with more waveforms per patch can be very expressive, with dramatic tonal changes depending on the velocity at which the note is played. Whilst this is a good thing in general terms, in can lead to headaches when doing a conversion, as sometimes you've got to modify the velocity values of each note individually. Another point to consider is effects; the MT-32 has only reverb and the SC-55 reverb and chorus. Modern synths have plenty effects units and plenty effect types, and you can play a lot using different kinds of reverb and other effects in the same track.

[NewRisingSUn]

but I actually agree, the Adlib version has something special.

One reason why Adlib sometimes seems better then Roland or General MIDI is that most Adlib sound drivers ignore the velocity field of a note, and play all notes at maximum velocity. So the case for SQ3's ADL.DRV. This means that the Adlib piece will usually be louder (and sometimes fuller) than the MT-32 piece, particularly if the velocities in the original piece have not been edited with precision.

I don't think Robot Garbage Freighter or The Black Hole would translate well into Adlib (although I honestly don't remember).

Refresh your memory. No, it can't hold a candle to the Roland piece, although I like the OPL3's hard left/right panning for some reason.

[Cloudschatze]

You guys should experience SQ3 the way I first did - though a card having "AdLib emulation." It was fantastic, dadgummit.
...
Wait... er, no... 

I don't think Robot Garbage Freighter or The Black Hole would translate well into Adlib (although I honestly don't remember).

Refresh your memory. No, it can't hold a candle to the Roland piece, although I like the OPL3's hard left/right panning for some reason.

I suppose I can ask, since it is an "Enhancing" thread...
Would it be worthwhile, or even possible, to substitute 4-operator voices in the AdLib patch file?

[NewRisingSUn]

Would it be worthwhile, or even possible, to substitute 4-operator voices in the AdLib patch file?

Apart from the question who's gonna make those 4-operator instruments, the OPL3 can ONLY play six 4-OP voices at once (plus 6 2-OP voices, or 18 2-OP voices). So if you're going 4-OP only, you'll have a measly 6 voices; otherwise, you'll have to mix 4-OP and 2-OP instruments.

Possible? Yes. Worthwhile? HELL no. I only wrote the stereo OPL3 drivers to bring the SBPro/16's output up to the Pro Audio Spectrum's and add in those 18 voices as a bonus.

[Cloudschatze]

Would it be worthwhile, or even possible, to substitute 4-operator voices in the AdLib patch file?

...you'll have to mix 4-OP and 2-OP instruments.

This is what I'd imagined. Despite having an overall poorer mix, most of the IMFC/FB-01 voices are significantly better than their 2-OP, AdLib counterparts. If the voice data is compatible, or can be converted, I figure a few of these voices could be used.

Possible? Yes. Worthwhile? HELL no.