Sequencer Plus Gold, by Voyetra Technologies.

[xchange]

Sorry, it might look a little ambitious on my behalf to just drop in and start a topic, but here I am.

Hopefully, if there is enough people interested, we might reach the "subcategory" status.

It's a nice feeling to find people who are still using the, IMHO, very best sequencer software ever written.

...

Well, I have a very big problem trying to keep order. There are so many things that I would like to ask about SPG.

First of all, I'd like to introduce myself, that's why I am reposting here my first message.

Since I am going to be asking for advice on certain issues here, I would like to offer my help in my area of expertise, which is how to use the basic functions of SPG and music itself (harmony, etc.).

On the other hand, I am very ignorant of the "hardware" side of computer-music-writing.

Well, enough said for now. If someone out there is willing to discuss about this great piece of software, be welcomed, and drop a line!!!

Cheers,

X-C.

[xchange]

This is a copy of my first post, I thought it could fit here:

This is amazing. I thought I was the only one alive of my species... it's great to meet fellow SPGers.

I have been using SPG since 1990, when I was 12, and in my opinion there is simply no other sequencer that gets to the little toe level of voyetra's SPG.

Actually, I have a collection of old hardware only for the sake of that program. I have a 386 with a Roland LPCI (my very first computer) that I left behind in Buenos Aires (that's where I come from) and I have here a collection of 486s, pentiums 2 and 3, with ISA slots and various SB cards (because they are cheap and work with SPG).

The latest driver written by Voyetra, as long as I know is for the AWE SB cards.

Well, it might look strange, but to this day I still don't understand how the hardware works, I have been too focused on the music.

But in my opinion there is no other sequencer that let's you input the music so easily.

For instance, you can enter the entire rhythm of one voice (as a combination of keystrokes) and then play along the pitches, which lets you enter a classical score (which uses simple rhythms, and many voices share the same rhythms, even if not the same pitches) in a matter of minutes.

Well, if you already got used to later sequencer, I guess SPG might not be worth the trouble, but if you started right on with SPG, there is no way you can find a substitute for a modern enviroment (newer machines, newer soundcards, newer O Ss).

Cheers,

X-C.

[xchange]

Well, I thought about a couple of issues that we could discuss regarding SPG, here is a small list, feel free to add your interests:

* How to adapt the old software to newer environments -how to keep it alive, once the old hardware is no more available- (like newer computers without ISA slots. I heard there is a new card by Turtle Beach with a driver which permits it to perform very well with DOS).

* Which options are out there for people not willing to invest in specific hardware (for instance, emulators of DOS, I have tried DOSBox, for windows, and is quite good, but is intended for gaming mostly, and even if SPG runs, the sound coming out of it is very ... ehem ... you know. I heard there is a very good DOS emulator for linux, and someone out there managed to use SPG under linux with very good results apparently).

* If you are half-way mad (like myself) you might invest very little money on old equipment which is given away almost for free. What you need is basically a computer with DOS, or Win 95, and ISA slots, plus a SB card. I bought the whole package (Pentium2 with ISA + Sound Blaster AWE 64 Gold) for less than 50 euros.


* Manuals: the documentation that I have has some pages missing. If there is someone out there with the whole documentation, it would be great to make it available to all. Of course, that takes time. So what I could do is scan the pages I have (which is more than 90%) and ask for the ones missing. Anyway, if somewhere out there there is someone willing to sell me the manuals (I'm offering this, since I guess no one will lend them to me), I would buy them and scan them and make them available.

Well, if you think about something else, please write.

Cheers,

X-C.

PS: by the way I live in Europe (at the zone for which Germans and French fought 3 wars, 2-1 for France -with a ... ehem... little help from the friends-)

[Tom]

I don't know how many others here actually use SPG.  It has been my gold standard since 1988 (Sequencer Plus Mark II and Mark III).  I was a beta tester for Voyetra's SpG when I met my wife, and was able to get a copy of of the software for free.

I still consider SPG to be the best software sequencer available simply because of its power and speed.  Once you learn it, it's very fast in operation -- really beats all that pointing-and-clicking required for Windows-based sequencers.

The Turtle Beach Riviera PCI soundcard works well with SPG, in DOS.  I use the MIDI port on this card to connect my SC-8820, and a MPU-IPC connects my MT-32.  Additionally, SPG also recognizes my Yamaha SW60XG sound card.  It's fascinating to me that this old software and it's drivers can handle all these things, simultaneously.  My driver.bat file is creative, I must say.

I run SPG under Win98SE's MS-DOS mode, on a Pentium III 1.0 GHz PC.  I also run a copy of SPG on an older Pentium II 333 MHz system.  I've been able to run SpG with DOSBox (under WinXP), but it doesn't work well.

The manual for SpG is HUGE ... it would be impratical to copy it all.  I did post the smaller 'reference book' some time ago. 
(http://66.49.226.244/utilities/SpG_QuickReferenceManual.pdf)

[Alistair]

I personally like the ease of use of Voyetra's later Win-based products- I use Digital Orchestrator Pro and the program is amazingly easy to use, yet very useful (if it handled VST it would be unsurpassable).

Funnily enough, a lot of new freeware MIDI sequencers seem to resemble older Voyetra ones. Shame Voyetra lost their way since the Santa Cruz (circa 2000), they were a great company.

I've been able to run SpG with DOSBox (under WinXP), but it doesn't work well.

DOSBox sometimes requires tweaking to get programs to work correctly- for example, I thought my laptop was too slow to play Krondor, using recommended 'standard' DOSBox configs, but I found someone's recommendation for the specific game on the web and now the game runs at a much better speed. I'd try setting around 20000 cycles (not 'auto' or 'max') and seeing how you go. Since it's ancient, I think it's likely it would run correctly (and I can check if it would help wither Tom or xchange or anyone else).

Finally, good to see you again, Tom, it's been too long. Do you owe me an email or PM or am I imagining it? (Serious question, moving to the US means my memory is shot.)

- Alistair

[Tom]

DOSBox sometimes requires tweaking to get programs to work correctly

I had been working with one of the DOSBox staff for a couple of months; he was giving me parameters to set and try, which is how we got SpG to work at all.  But it couldn't keep up with multiple tracks.  The synching would slip.  We kind of gave up on it, and I've been content using my Win98's machines.

Finally, good to see you again, Tom, it's been too long.

I've just been incredibly busy at home and at work for several weeks.  We've also had a very hard winter here in northeast Wisconsin; it makes traveling to and from work a 4-hour ordeal, which gives me no time for anything.  Seems to snow every-other day around here.  (I've been stranded in a ditch three times since December!)  Anyway, I don't think I have an unresponded email or anything, but then, my email client has been through a couple of reinstalls as of late.

[Alistair]

I had been working with one of the DOSBox staff for a couple of months; he was giving me parameters to set and try, which is how we got SpG to work at all.  But it couldn't keep up with multiple tracks.  The synching would slip.  We kind of gave up on it, and I've been content using my Win98's machines.

Aha. Unfortunate, although I suppose if you have an older machine, it makes more sense to do that than fiddle around.

I've just been incredibly busy at home and at work for several weeks.  We've also had a very hard winter here in northeast Wisconsin; it makes traveling to and from work a 4-hour ordeal, which gives me no time for anything.  Seems to snow every-other day around here.  (I've been stranded in a ditch three times since December!)  Anyway, I don't think I have an unresponded email or anything, but then, my email client has been through a couple of reinstalls as of late.

In that context, I understand why I haven't seen you!!

You won't have noticed being so busy, but I haven't been around much either- I was supposed to update SMC back in September, or something- but I got sick for a long time. Now that I'm planning my move to the US (24 days left!!), SMC has taken a back seat for a good 6 months now, which is a real bummer. But I've started the FPFP CD again and damn, it feels good to be recording again.

I hope work becomes easier- Oklahoma weather was wild for a time (100,000 homes without power) so I have that to look forward to. But it's a bummer you have so much snow to contend with, in my State here (South Australia) it only snows in the hills, nowhere near the CBD or where I live in the country.

I'm sure there's some correspondence owing- maybe I mentally wrote the message and never sent it

Hey, while I'm off-topic, what are house prices like in WI?

- Alistair

[Tom]

Housing is quite variable in Wisconsin, depending on what area you live in; rural or metro area.  Where I live, the median price of a home is about $100,000.  This is an economically deprived area, though.  Where I work (in Door County), it's about $125,000.  Larger metro areas, like Milwaukee, Madison, and Green Bay -- about $155,000 was the last median value of homes I remember seeing.

[Alistair]

Huh. Incredible, housing has spiked here in the last 5 years to mammoth proportions- 'affordable' housing has jumped from 100-150,000 to more like 300-350, and I live in one of the cheaper States.

Thankfully, Tulsa (Oklahoma) medians seem quite similar to Wisconsin's, so now that I'm moving to the States this month, I can actually plan to buy a house (with mortgage of course) this year, instead of saving for the next 10 years so that I might be able to put a deposit on one.

I'm looking in the 80,000-120,000 range (of course, higher if it was a 'dream home' ;P), and just need more information about US housing, because I'm the definition of novice. Just happy I can afford to own my home outright by age 55 in the US (assuming I never get paid more than $10/hour, too). It really is the 'land of opportunity' (except for healthcare, but let's hope Obama somehow becomes President).

- Alistair

[dbarton]

>I had been working with one of the DOSBox staff for a couple of months; he was giving me parameters to set and try, which is how we got SpG to work at all.  But it couldn't keep up with >multiple tracks.  The synching would slip.  We kind of gave up on it, and I've been content using my Win98's machines.

I also use SPG, and have been down the same path. There is an issue in DOSBOX that makes it seem like it cant keep up, but it's not that, at least on a fast machine. It's a flaw in the way the MIDI notes are handled by DOSBOX for music purposes. DOSBOX was written for games, so timing wasn't an issue.

I have found a weird workaround. If I create a dummy track in SPG, and just add a bunch of quarter notes that go nowhere, this dramatically improved the timing of all other notes. No idea why, but it does, and I just added a one measure loop to all my songs. (it may be dummy 16th notes, I forget)

This made SPG very usable under DOSBOX. [I am picky about timing.]

If you don't want this workaround, this flaw is dealt with very nicely in a patch that Don V Wells wrote, called TESTMT32, which you'll fnd if you search the DOSbox board. Only for DOSBOX .70 for now, but I am told by Don that will be fixed for .072 soon. This fix is amazing and I have to thank him again for it. It also fixed the sendng of MIDI sync, although I doubt many of you need that. I did, and DOSbox without thsi fix is very shakey on MIDI sync.

I am running full songs in SPG, under DOSBOX on XP pro. The machine is a Core 2 Duo 1.6, and runs it well.

Remember, if you run DOSBOX under XP, the MIDI is now handled by the Windows driver, so you can use USB MIDI cards. This setup eliminates the need for ANY old hardware.
The flaw is that DOSBOX has no MIDI *IN* yet, so this is for playback ONLY. I also have a 386 running real DOS for recording.

There is a patch by Srecko that adds MIDI in to DOSBOX, but then you cant use the patch for better timing. I' hope one day they both will be added.

[Tom]

This is exciting news!  I'm going to have to check this out.  Even if I could use SpG to 'edit' existing MIDI tracks on my XP machine, that would be really nice.

[dbarton]

This is exciting news!  I'm going to have to check this out.  Even if I could use SpG to 'edit' existing MIDI tracks on my XP machine, that would be really nice.

Yes. I'd prefer to have MIDI input as well, but basic changes can be made 'in the box'.

Remember also that SPG has the weird ability to play notes via the computer keyboard.

[Tom]

Remember also that SPG has the weird ability to play notes via the computer keyboard.

That's refered to as a QWERTY keyboard, and I'm pretty sure almost every sequencer can do that.  Plus, 'step-entry' of notes through SpG's 'NOTE EDIT' screen.

[davephillips]

Greetings to fellow SPG users !

I've been using Sequencer Plus Gold with DOSemu under Linux. I use the ALSA virtual MIDI driver for output and the physical port on my soundcard for input. Everything works perfectly, and of course it's fast. For me, it's the best MIDI sequencer.

OT: Voyetra made a nice port of David Ziccharelli's M. They called it M/pc, and at one time I could run it under DOSemu. Alas, my primary diskette got trashed, and Voyetra had lost the code. Did anyone else on this forum perhaps check out M/pc ?

I do all my MIDI composition with SPG. I'll post some URLs in a later message.

Dave Phillips

[dbarton]

I have no Linux experience, but am intersted in your setup.

Whats's actually involved with getting a modern laptop to run Linux and the enviroment needed to run SPG?

Would it be a USB device for MIDI in/out?

Is there a CD or USB key bootable linux that would run it? I'd like try it, but only if it's a fairly easy propject..

[dbarton]

I'd like to run SPG under Linux on one of those Asus E computers.. Any tips?

[davephillips]

Whats's actually involved with getting a modern laptop to run Linux and the enviroment needed to run SPG?

I can't say how it goes with modern laptops, but my antique HP Omnibook 4150 works nicely for running SPG under the DOS emulation software. The machine runs an ancient Red Hat 9 and a version of DOSemu I probably compiled myself.

The emulator is pretty good. I can load the VAPI MPU driver, SPG starts right up, and any MIDI events it generates are passed to the emulator's MIDI handler. I link the handler to a valid MIDI device, and I can route SPG's output to any hardware ports or softsynths I have in my system.

MIDI In is also possible, with or without the USB connection.

Would it be a USB device for MIDI in/out?

Yes, that what I do with the Omnibook, with a Midisport 2x2. I have to load some firmware, but I automated that process to run at start-up anway.

I also use a virtual MIDI module to get four ports that can route the output from SPG to softsynths running on the same machine. The laptop is only a 366 MHz box, so the external MIDI connection is preferable. I still have two Yamaha TX802 FM synths and a Kawai K4r in the rack, for emergencies.

Is there a CD or USB key bootable linux that would run it? I'd like try it, but only if it's a fairly easy propject..

Some of the items listed at http://linux-sound.org/distro.html are bootable distributions. Setting up the DOS emulator isn't especially difficult, but if you have no prior experience with Linux I wouldn't say it's a fairly easy project. I suggest that you try one of the live CDs just to get a general sense of what's involved with running Linux before getting into a relatively special aspect of the system.

Just my two drachmas, of course.

[dbarton]

I'm curious why you compiled DOSemu yourself. Is there some customizing it needs to work?

Are there Linux drivers fro the MIDIsport 2x2?

[davephillips]

I'm curious why you compiled DOSemu yourself. Is there some customizing it needs to work?

I'm not sure I did compile it myself for the laptop. But I have compiled DOSemu many times with no difficulties. No special compile-time options were ever required, IIRC, except for the 64-bit version.

Are there Linux drivers fro the MIDIsport 2x2?

The required kernel module is called usb-audio, and most of the time it's all you'll need to get a USB audio device working. Alas, the MidiSport also needs firmware loaded at boot-time, which can be automated, as I mentioned. Better to get a USB device that doesn't require the firmware loader, it's just easier to deal with.

[davephillips]

...I heard there is a very good DOS emulator for linux, and someone out there managed to use SPG under linux with very good results apparently.

That would be probably DOSemu and me.

Btw, I've even sync'd SPG to the Ardour DAW's MIDI Time Code. Worked perfectly.

And as threatened, here's a page full of music I've made with Linux audio tools, including many pieces composed with SPG running under DOSemu in Linux:

http://linux-sound.org/ardour-music.html

Almost all the instrumental music there and many of the backing tracks were created with SPG under Linux. Please feel free to comment.