Any vinyl lovers out there?

[jbltecnicspro]

I just recently discovered vinyl.  We have a turntable that never gets used, so I went and got some records from my school library (50 cents a pop), and I must say that I'm impressed!  I never expected it to sound so GOOD.    Any other members listen to vinyl (or, I should say - STILL listen to vinyl)?   

[apeman]

It's not as high resolution as CD, but it sounds much nicer on the ears.  And the imaging is much more realistic for some reason.

Hate to be a party pooper, but if you're going to make statements like that you should really have some kind of proof to back it up with....

[jbltecnicspro]

It's not as high resolution as CD, but it sounds much nicer on the ears.  And the imaging is much more realistic for some reason.

Hate to be a party pooper, but if you're going to make statements like that you should really have some kind of proof to back it up with....

I guess so.  Sorry I posted.  Well, to my ears using my Sennheiser HD650 headphones with a headphone amp, the records sound more reserved on the high frequency sounds.  And I like this kind of sound - maybe it's because I'm a violist (alto instrument of the strings), but I like a more "laid-back" sound.  Besides, this isn't an audiophile forum... and I'm not about to start a "CD versus Vinyl" argument... I'll edit my first statement to reflect this.  Proof?  I have none, other than my own personal statements that I enjoy vinyl, despite its obvious limitations (crackling, distortions).  I guess I should have said that with some recent stuff that I've read, I was expecting the records to sound like crap, but they didn't, and I like them.

[Tom]

Vinyl, you bet!  I, too, love listening to albums.  for me, as well, the high frequency sounds of records is so clean and natural.  I've got tons of LP's, including the very first "Meet The Beatles" album.  Some are in perfect condition, while others...not so good.  i recently bought a NEW turntable (Audio-Technica) as my old Sony bit the dust a while back.  I'm definitely a fan of vinyl, and have been for a long time.  Who ever said records sound like crap?  You'll find that there's a lot of us vinyl lovers still around!

[apeman]

Well, I'm old enough to have spent just about all my youth listening to vinyl.... and I'm surprised people are feeling nostalgic about it. Do you really miss fluffy needles, scratchy grooves and the fact that lowering the stylus onto the exact start of the track you want to listen to was something that required the hands of a surgeon?! For me CDs represented a welcome and logical progression.

I agree with jbl that this shouldn't descend into some audiophile flamewar (not that I'm an audiophile, far from it) but as for the supposed "warmer" sound of vinyl... could that be due to the fact that a lot of CDs are simply mastered like sh*t? Compression is being used more and more, because some folks obviously think that LOUD = good (and more sales).

[jbltecnicspro]

Well, I'm old enough to have spent just about all my youth listening to vinyl.... and I'm surprised people are feeling nostalgic about it. Do you really miss fluffy needles, scratchy grooves and the fact that lowering the stylus onto the exact start of the track you want to listen to was something that required the hands of a surgeon?! For me CDs represented a welcome and logical progression.

I agree with jbl that this shouldn't descend into some audiophile flamewar (not that I'm an audiophile, far from it) but as for the supposed "warmer" sound of vinyl... could that be due to the fact that a lot of CDs are simply mastered like sh*t? Compression is being used more and more, because some folks obviously think that LOUD = good (and more sales).

My vinyl collection consists of mostly classical music, and for the most part, record companies actually do a good job at mastering classical music onto CDs.  I think it's because their target market isn't young kids trying to blow the roof off of their houses that classical CDs (good ones, anyway) don't get dragged into the loudness wars.  For the most part, new recordings suck.  Most new rock music is mastered way too loud, leading to distortions in the sound (kind of like clipping).  Even a good recording on CD doesn't sound as "warm" to me as vinyl does.  Some believe it's due to the distortions of the nature of Analog versus Digital, and they could be right.  After all imperfections are what make something more "real."  There is one instrument that seems to sound better on vinyl - and that's the french horn.  I can't think of the words to describe it at the moment - but french horn on vinyl sounds more like the french horn's I've heard at live performances than a french horn on CD.

At any rate, I always thought vinyl sounded closer to "live" sounding than CD (with classical music, anyway).  CD is a little too in-your-face to sound live, where as vinyl sounds "at ease," and relaxed.  Has anyone listened to DVD Audio or SACD? 

[Alistair]

Apeman said it all pretty much. Modern CD's are getting bad purely because of mastering- but get some well-mastered CD's (say, the James Bond remastered soundtracks) and compare to the vinyl equivalent and if you prefer vinyl in that scenario, I'd be very surprised.

Yeah, I like vinyl too. I grew up listening to albums like Dire Straits' "Alchemy" and Beatles records, etc.

But if we're to be objective, I personally think vinyl has a lot of elements that are best left to history- scratchy needles, hiss, pops/clicks, etc. There's a bunch of people out there who spend time transferring vinyl to PC (WAV format) and mainly removing artifacts.

But yeah. CD has better dynamic range and theoretically better quality .But it depends on the recording/mastering engineer. Compression, as apeman pointed out, is a sad reality in many CD's, and worse yet, "clipression" (maxing the volume out so much beyond normalisation that the volume is really loud but the track clips a lot).

- Alistair

[NewRisingSUn]

I like putting the word "real" in quotes to suggest one doesn't go for the real meaning of "real"...

Try recording the vinyl output with a good soundcard and see if it still sounds as "warm" in the digital playback of the recording. If it does, then it can't be a deficiency inherent in digital sound (as some audiophiles claim), but must be either different mastering decisions or some kind of distortion. In most cases, it's a simple hiss roll-off easily replicated with an equalizer.

I find original Beatles LPs muffled-sounding, personally. Some may find that sound "warm".

Has anyone listened to DVD Audio or SACD?

Yes. The stereo sounded just like a CD. I like them for their lossless compression and multichannel capability. The increased resolution and sampling rate are useless with properly-mastered CDs and a good CD player.

The "warmest"-sounding recordings I have heard are actually a few French soundtrack CDs. Maybe I should post a few samples...

[jbltecnicspro]

I like putting the word "real" in quotes to suggest one doesn't go for the real meaning of "real"...

Try recording the vinyl output with a good soundcard and see if it still sounds as "warm" in the digital playback of the recording. If it does, then it can't be a deficiency inherent in digital sound (as some audiophiles claim), but must be either different mastering decisions or some kind of distortion. In most cases, it's a simple hiss roll-off easily replicated with an equalizer.

I find original Beatles LPs muffled-sounding, personally. Some may find that sound "warm".

Has anyone listened to DVD Audio or SACD?

Yes. The stereo sounded just like a CD. I like them for their lossless compression and multichannel capability. The increased resolution and sampling rate are useless with properly-mastered CDs and a good CD player.

The "warmest"-sounding recordings I have heard are actually a few French soundtrack CDs. Maybe I should post a few samples...

Out of DVD-Audio and SACD, which format are you specifically referring to?  Both?  I was considering getting a Marantz SA-8001 SACD player.  I read that it was a very good CD player as well.  Also, I've read that the "better" sound of SACDs might be due to the fact that Sony specifies that SACDs should not be louder than -6 dB of signal, with an allowance of +3 dB of this standard, meaning the maximum output is still below the decibal limit.  CDs, on the other hand, are pushed to near-limit dBs all the time.  I have an old Technics CD player made in 1987, and it's actually of pretty high quality.  Sounds very good, and from what I've read, it's supposed to have an analog sound to it - whatever that means.

[mace]

Vinyl, hell yes!

I'm too young to have lived in the vinyl age, but still, I love the medium!

The entire procedure of removing a record from its sleeve and carefully placing it on your turntable, turning it on and wiping it with a special brush.
Lifting the arm and carefully placing the needle on the record. Awesome, I love that ritualistic aspect of it!

Also, I think vinyl sounds warmer somehow, and I know CD's are better in theory, but I think that for some music, vinyl just works better as a medium.

I was born in '86, but my dad (who passed away recently) was a real hifi enthusiast, and I always accompanied him to hi-fi shows and spent nights just playing records and drinking single malts.
We listened to CD and SACD too of course, but some records are just better on vinyl, like Jazz at the Pawnshop, 180 gram vinyl, excellent quality.

I really miss him, but I inherited his record collection and high-end turntable, so I play them from time to time, remembering those evenings shared.

[NewRisingSUn]

Out of DVD-Audio and SACD, which format are you specifically referring to?  Both?

It was a combined player, and some titles were only available on one but not the other, so both.

Also, I've read that the "better" sound of SACDs might be due to the fact that Sony specifies that SACDs should not be louder than -6 dB of signal, with an allowance of +3 dB of this standard, meaning the maximum output is still below the decibal limit.  CDs, on the other hand, are pushed to near-limit dBs all the time. 

There's nothing wrong with going to 0 dB during peak sections, which is what normalization does, and constitutes GOOD mastering. BAD mastering is if you saw off peaks so that non-peak sections are closer to 0 dB.

[mace]

Out of DVD-Audio and SACD, which format are you specifically referring to?  Both?

It was a combined player, and some titles were only available on one but not the other, so both.

Also, I've read that the "better" sound of SACDs might be due to the fact that Sony specifies that SACDs should not be louder than -6 dB of signal, with an allowance of +3 dB of this standard, meaning the maximum output is still below the decibal limit.  CDs, on the other hand, are pushed to near-limit dBs all the time. 

There's nothing wrong with going to 0 dB during peak sections, which is what normalization does, and constitutes GOOD mastering. BAD mastering is if you saw off peaks so that non-peak sections are closer to 0 dB.

Nothing wrong with going to 0dB, but when a waveform looks like a "fuzzy sausage" it's compressed to death, and usually it clips pretty bad.

You don't actually need to go to 0dB all that often, people don't have amps with volume knobs just because it looks pretty.
Hitting 0dB in a piece of music a few times is okay, but it's not like you're wasting dynamic range by not doing it.

[jbltecnicspro]

I actually have an SACD (but no player), and I always thought it sounded better than my other recordings.  I actually just recently discovered that it was an SACD - so it's not a placebo effect.  I wouldn't be surprised if they're mastered better, and if it's just good mastering that makes SACD as good as it is.

[mace]

I actually have an SACD (but no player), and I always thought it sounded better than my other recordings.  I actually just recently discovered that it was an SACD - so it's not a placebo effect.  I wouldn't be surprised if they're mastered better, and if it's just good mastering that makes SACD as good as it is.

That's usually the case, SACD's are mastered carefully and the CD layer is usually the same master.

[Alistair]

This is pretty much why I always master SMC CD's to 96% of volume, or -0.355dB. Good dynamic range and no chance of clipping.

Aubrey squashed my FPFP CD a little in places- I mean, he got damn good range out of it, but that's one of the reasons I'm providing my original edits also.

- Alistair

[Tom]

I think my "motion picture soundtrack" and orchestra/classical albums sound the best, too.  I love just sitting back and getting lost in the sound.  I've transferred many of my records to CD's, but there's no way I can fairly compare them -- my turntable is connected to an amp that doesn't have a CD player connected -- so the sound my records produce is a combination of the amp, cartridge/turntable, and speakers connected to that system -- which is quite different than the equipment used with my CD player.

[jbltecnicspro]

I actually have an SACD (but no player), and I always thought it sounded better than my other recordings.  I actually just recently discovered that it was an SACD - so it's not a placebo effect.  I wouldn't be surprised if they're mastered better, and if it's just good mastering that makes SACD as good as it is.

That's usually the case, SACD's are mastered carefully and the CD layer is usually the same master.

I'm going to try an experiment and order the SACD version of a recording I already have: RCA Living Stereo recording of Mussoursky's Pictures at an Exhibition, and compare the SACD (with the CD layer) to the CD version and see which one is better... I'll be using my 1987 CD player to compare the two.  I'm hoping that they'll sound the same, and that the SACD won't have a better master - and if it does sound better, then I'll be angry/disappointed.

[Cloudschatze]

The entire procedure of removing a record from its sleeve and carefully placing it on your turntable, turning it on and wiping it with a special brush.
Lifting the arm and carefully placing the needle on the record. Awesome, I love that ritualistic aspect of it!

What, you didn't hit it with a blast from an anti-static gun first?

Your dad sounds a bit like mine. He worked at a Hi-Fi store in the '70s, and maintained a rather nice turntable setup while I was growing up. I think he saw the writing on the wall with the commercial release of the compact disc, however, and purchased a Sony CDP-101, way back in 1983.

As I hit my teenage years, some of his enthusiasm wore off onto me, and I grew to really appreciate the Mobile Fidelity Sound Lab remasters. A few years back, we both became fans of the SACD format.

I own, and have listened to, quite a few SACDs. I find that, while there are some that fall short of the quality of a well-mastered CD, others (that have generally been recorded in DSD (Telarc)), tend to surpass the best CD masterings I've heard.

Not surprisingly, the Redbook layers of some DSD-recorded SACDs are some of the best CD masterings I've heard.

[jbltecnicspro]

What kind of SACD player do you use?  I was thinking of getting a Marantz to pair with my Sennheiser HD650s.

[Cloudschatze]

What kind of SACD player do you use?  I was thinking of getting a Marantz to pair with my Sennheiser HD650s.

A lowly, but well-regarded, Pioneer DV-563A. I have this paired with a Grado RA-1 and Sennheiser HD600 combo.