King Quest VII complete soundtrack

[Alistair]

I know your site is a MIDI site, but let's face it. The future of either site rests on its' digital releases.

My actual point had nothing to do with QuestStudios, at any rate.

Boogeyman, you alive?

- Alistair

[Tom]

When MIDI is gone (which I doubt will happen anytime soon), then so will this site...which is my point.  I don't really know what point you were trying to make, but it surely isn't a constructive one.

When others offer MIDI recordings of Sierra titles, it should be encouraged, without making derogatory statements about being skeptical of their ability to do so -- or their intentions toward recording a complete soundtrack.

[Ari]

Reminds me, I'll upload some individual MIDI's to replace the buggy ones on the KQ page if you like, Tom/Ari/et al.

What do you mean by buggy?

[Boogeyman]

There are 66 tracks total. Where might I upload?

[Tom]

I'll make arrangements so you can upload it to my FTP server.  Give me a day or so.  How much space do the files require?  Ogg or MP3?  Song titles?

[Alistair]

When MIDI is gone (which I doubt will happen anytime soon), then so will this site...which is my point. I don't really know what point you were trying to make, but it surely isn't a constructive one.

When others offer MIDI recordings of Sierra titles, it should be encouraged, without making derogatory statements about being skeptical of their ability to do so -- or their intentions toward recording a complete soundtrack.

I doubt it too. Surprisingly, it's made a comeback. Which is nothing short of awesome.
And I take your point. Mine was made at some unholy hour, and apart from that exact time, I won't know what my point was, so I'll happily retract my statement.

Next paragraph. Firstly, the guy's offering digital recordings, right? Not MIDI..
Additionally, I was *not* derogatory about the guy.. I was requesting further information, as I clarified in a more recent post.
I mean, to use an extreme example, what if all the tracks were recorded from a MT-32? We really have no idea what this soundtrack is a recording *of*. Again, no offence is meant, I simply am curious. There is a difference.
And, recording a 'complete soundtrack' of KQ7 is complicated.. I'm all for it. Well, enough said. You largely put words in my mouth in that last post, Tom.. let's just wait.
66 sounds fair.. mm.

What do you mean by buggy?

The ones I downloaded all contained controllers which made the MIDI files play back incorrectly. Some bizarre lists of controllers, as far as I recall.

- Alistair

[Ivar]

Even though we have explored the concept of a 'complete soundtrack' to its fullest, I cannot help but to reply on this.

For me 'a complete soundtrack' means that all the major themes of the game have been included.

Nobody wants to listen to a soundtrack containing +100 tracks of which half consist of short (less than 10 seconds) loops. That is not a soundtrack in my view as it does not add to the listing pleasure. And I do hope that the essence of creating a soundtrack is that people will listen to it.

So, Alistair, please explain to me where this drive for creating 'complete' soundtracks come from and why you appear to focus so much on quantity in terms of tracks rather than quality.

I'd even prefer a soundtrack in which the major themes of a game are present and in which the songs are even shuffled in order to create an optimal balance musically wise.
I remember having shuffled the order of tracks from the GK2 soundtrack as there were a few similar sounding tracks too close together in the order of tracks.
Completeness in terms of any sound belonging the game being presented on the soundtrack is not much of an issue to anyone I suppose.

Just my 2 cents
Ivar

[Marten]

Alright folks, let's cool off

Alistair, you have some infamy among Quest Studios regulars.  I recognize that you want to help continuously improve Quest Studios; for example, you  have a concept of what a "Complete Soundtrack" should be, and when you see that standard hasn't been met, you try to help others step up to the level of professionalism you visualize.  However, you often convey your message with negative words.  Remember the axiom, "It's not what you say, it's how you say it."

And Tom... you get defensive really easy.  You've put a lot of hard work into this site, and we all appreciate that... and you shouldn't take criticism so personally.  Alistair's personality is not too different from mine; for example, when I correct someone on their grammar or spelling, I don't perceive myself as criticising, but rather as trying to help the other person improve.  I think you would be a happier person if you looked past the "packaging" of Alistair's ideas and more at what he's trying to say.  That doesn't mean Alistair and you will always agree.  I believe you have the upper hand in both experience and appreciation of aesthetics (visual and audio).  It may feel tiring to explain to Alistair why you have chosen to do things one way, when Alistair feels that there is a better way, but discussion will be more constructive than avoidance.

The issue of what a "Complete Soundtrack" should be has been debated in the private forums of this board before, and it's good to see Ivar bring it out to the public now.  Personally, I see both sides having valid points:  The word "Complete" implies whole, not lacking any part or piece, yet at the same time I derive little pleasure from listening to exceedingly short themes (especially looped repetitively) or to 30 seconds of car horns honking and cats screeching if that is part of the "sound track" (literal use of the word) for a game.  At least within the private forums, the majority of participants have indicated that they prefer musical soundtracks with a minimum of sound effects.

Let me try to propose a compromise.

It's too bad that standard audio CDs don't support multiple track listings!  But here online, when we're posting individual tracks that people can download and burn on their own, each person has control.  I think it's perfectly alright for the "Complete" soundtracks to include all of the sound effects and pieces... but as most people may prefer a music-only experience, there's no reason for us to not provide two different track orders.  Thus, we could have the "King's Quest VII Complete Soundtrack", and the "King's Quest VII Suite Soundtrack" - as alternative track orderings to meet personal preferences.  Suites (such as the Nutcracker Suite) do not purport to be comprehensive, but may be a composition of the best pieces of a larger work.

Thoughts?

[Ari]

It's a little late for me, but there's one point I'd like to make regarding your suggestion. It's not so much a matter of uploading and making available each and every theme from a game, including 10 second loops and such. Recording the themes is the easy part in all this, and whether I'm recording a long and 'important' theme or a short, repetitive, insignificant theme doesn't make much of a difference to me. The hard work in all this is editing these themes and working on them to make them presentable, in which case, I tend to ommit the themes I think are insignificant as early as the recording stage. Because of that, I don't really see the point in making EVERYTHING available and letting people choose what they prefer.

[Alistair]

It's okay, John, I know there's little room for opinion at this board. And mine isn't overly positive. Constructive criticism would be more useful, I appreciate that- I like to think I'm pretty good, normally. I do get riled up sometimes, though.

But I liked that post. First time I've felt relaxed in this thread.

I think all three of you who posted after me have one thing wrong, though. I don't know where this 'Alistair wants every sound effect on a soundtrack CD' idea came from! In the very early days, it was something I did. Back then, I couldn't mix the MT-32 and Sound Canvas. Heck, I didn't even have a working Sound Canvas! (My 55 was busted.)
I've definitely moved on from those days. Though, I believe certain 10-15 second melodies can be incorporated into a CD. (Take 'The Drunk' from LSL1, Tom combined it into the 'Quiki Mart' track. And 'The End' from LSL3.)
I'll be perfectly honest- I'm almost done with my GK1 CD. There's only two tracks which possibly fall into the category you're talking about. One is the 'Rada Drummer', and one is the 'Voodoo Museum Snake Attack', both about 30 seconds. The other 78:07 is all music! Let's get with the times, people- I'm not including barely any GK sfx. I haven't devoted a track to 'Gabriel's Motorcycle'.
Sigh. Yes, comments like this are entirely invalid:

Nobody wants to listen to a soundtrack containing +100 tracks of which half consist of short (less than 10 seconds) loops. That is not a soundtrack in my view as it does not add to the listing pleasure. And I do hope that the essence of creating a soundtrack is that people will listen to it.

So, Alistair, please explain to me where this drive for creating 'complete' soundtracks come from and why you appear to focus so much on quantity in terms of tracks rather than quality.

(I take particular offence to that one.)
I do believe all the major themes should be present, and very few QuestStudios CD's are musically complete. Eco Quest 1 and King's Quest VI are two cases of a full CD (though, in KQ6 there's a song you can get by going an alternative way to the Castle at the end.. ). Would you prefer the other way, Ivar, where the CD's lack tracks? Larry 5/6 are two good examples. I remember there being a woman called 'Thunderbird' in LSL6. And there's a theme for the 'Guard Shack' that's a spoof of the Bond theme. They're not 10 second sound effect pieces, let me assure you. And as I've mentioned previously, there's 10 minutes of music at least absent from LSL5CD. If you were arguing that you wouldn't listen to a CD that was complete, I'll argue I won't listen to an 'incomplete' CD. And quite often I record extra themes to supplement Tom's excellent works, when I burn CD's of Sierra soundtracks.

I wouldn't listen to anything like that (CD's full of sound effects and 10 second tracks) either, strangely enough.

With KQ7, I was saying that there is a lot of *music* from the game! Extracted MIDI's that are over 2 KB in the game (usually indicates musical track) number 115!
There's certainly more than KQ6.
I believe few of you guys have played it (or listened to it), which makes you unable to comment on its' 'complete soundtrack-ness'.

On to Marten.

Alistair, you have some infamy among Quest Studios regulars. I recognize that you want to help continuously improve Quest Studios; for example, you have a concept of what a "Complete Soundtrack" should be,

I won't touch on why I'm 'infamous'. I was awful 2 years ago, I admit it (I can't even look at my posts from back then). I'd like to think we've (Tom and I, for example) moved beyond that. It was hard in the beginning (August 2002) when I had no support, and I suppose a reason as to why I've been especially defensive in this thread is that after not getting any support whatsoever from this group for 2 years someone anonymous comes along and gets complete support.

As for the rest of that quote; not entirely true, I have a concept of 'perfection'. I know I'm not going to meet it, Tom can get closer, and so I always see the 'gaps'.
I always see Sierra music from a theoretical point of view (which is hard, since sometimes the best tracks are made by breaking the 'rules') before a practical point of view. It's quite academic.

Let's clear this one up for the final time. My concept of a 'complete soundtrack' is one where all the music's there! For example, the LB2 GM MIDI. There's at least 30 minutes of musical tracks, not SFX, that's missing. That's not me wanting to hear every 'break glass' or 'taxi' effect..
For me, a soundtrack should take you through the game. You can usually tell where pieces have been missed by the soundtrack skipping to a further point in the game while missing out a previous bit. (SQ6GM.MID, 'Dr. Beleauxs Lab Part 2' followed by 'Return to Delta Burksilon' is a classic example.)

and when you see that standard hasn't been met, you try to help others step up to the level of professionalism you visualize.

Well, Tom's work is more professional than mine. I've never released a proper soundtrack CD, even yet. That is, a proper mix of the MT-32 and Sound Canvases. You guys will see what I'm really about with GK1, though- the gap will be closed up a bit.

And yes, I've already said, I'll try and go on a constructive drive. I feel in that kind of mood already.

Next long, long paragraph (I won't quote it, it's giant!):
I probably appreciate Tom's hard work (and Ari's) more than anyone. Expressed it as well on multiple occasions.
I'd prefer discussion rather than avoidance as well, I'm always trying to learn. Some of his tracks are very complex (e.g. SC-55 choral enhancements) and getting a default/generic response doesn't do my knowledge any good ('tiring', John?).
I'd prefer all people look past the packaging. Probably time I put points better, still.

No, not more 'complete soundtrack' stuff..

But I'll reply one last time.
I don't think the idea is a good one. I minimise sound effects on my CD's, and make the CD tailored to fit a 80 minute CD, usually. I just don't see the point.

And with KQ7, can we wait until this guy releases the CD? I'll comment more then (though, by the way- when I was working on KQ7 about three months ago, I recorded about 30 tracks or so.. none less than a minute).

I agree with Ari's point. Spot on.

One last word- anyone who replies to just one particular sentence out of this long post has really missed the point.. let's have proper discussion.

Yikes, I spent an hour on this? I'm off to record Willy Beamish tracks.

- Alistair

[Tom]

I'm cool.   :smt006

Good write, John.  Though, I have no problem with being defensive.  (See, there I go again...being defensive.)    I'd rather not be passive -- I like to believe I basically choose the middle ground.  It's a topic we've spent some time on during counseling some years ago.

Anyway...

Alistair, if the KQ7 MIDI files are 'buggy', please feel free to fix them.  I'll be glad to reupload them after you fix them.  I didn't record them and never did much with them.  Never did any extensive examinations of the tracks.  But they seemed to play fine on my gear so they were uploaded.

As mentioned several times, I don't typically record "complete" soundtracks, note-per-note...or even every song.  I recorded the music heard while I was playing the games.  Since many games have various paths, and I don't follow them all, well...you know.   And when I did the CD's years ago, I based those on 74-minute discs, so even the MIDI soundtracks wouldn't all fit on one.  I made exceptions with only two of them.

-------------

But in regards to KQ7, I sent email to Boogeyman to get the specifics on KQ7.  I'll probably let Ari and/or Frank deal with that, though.  I'm much too occupied with updating this website.

[Alistair]

Yeah, nothing says "I'm a waste of space" like being passive, I guess.

Alistair, if the KQ7 MIDI files are 'buggy', please feel free to fix them. I'll be glad to reupload them after you fix them. I didn't record them and never did much with them. Never did any extensive examinations of the tracks. But they seemed to play fine on my gear so they were uploaded.

Well, as I said, the issue is the bizarre stream of controllers at the start. Messes with my Sound Canvas! Stops notes playing properly.
I won't fix them, but I will supply my own ones (That's easier ).
Shame you never heard the score! Quite a good one.

Ah, that next paragraph is quite interesting.
Clears a few things up.

But in regards to KQ7, I sent email to Boogeyman to get the specifics on KQ7. I'll probably let Ari and/or Frank deal with that, though. I'm much too occupied with updating this website.

Fair enough! Hope you disclose your latest projects to us mere mortals in the near future.

- Alistair

[Tom]

Well, as I said, the issue is the bizarre stream of controllers at the start. Messes with my Sound Canvas!

Maybe you could give me some specifics, then.  Out of curiosity, I loaded up a few GM and MT-32 KQ7 MIDI files and looked at the tracks and couldn't find anything "extra" in them in terms of controllers.  I played the files through the MT-32 and SC-55 and they played properly.

Perhaps I didn't load the correct files to examine, so if you could give me some specifics as to which files are the problem, and what controller type seems to be interferring with your SC-55, I'll fix them.  That'll be a lot easier than re-recording them.

[Alistair]

As far as I know, there should be *no* 'controller 75' 's in any of the files.
Additionally, the ones balanced for the SC-55 have a stream of bizarre 'All Notes Off' controllers. Neither should be there.

- Alistair

[Tom]

Controller 75 is a "Sound Decay" control, and I've found it in virtually every  Sierra MIDI file I've dealt with.   I haven't noticed any difference in whether it's there or not, and my guess is that, since it's always set to zero in Sierra MIDI, it's used to control other MIDI devices other than the MT-32.  It certainly doesn't effect MT-32 playback so what's the difference if it's there?   Sierra's MIDI guys dealt with multi-purpose MIDI playback -- more than one device was addressed in the same song file.  Ad Lib and the MT-32, for instance.  Is it affecting your MT-32's playback?  Anyway, I certainly didn't place any Controller 75's in any Sierra song file -- Sierra did.  And why they did, I don't know -- but I'm sure they had a reason.

A stream of Note Off controllers?  I'll look for some in the KQ7 GM song files.  In many GM files, I used to place an All Reset at the end of each channel's track -- but not a stream of them.  Especially if there was a lot of benders or sustain used on a given channel.  I'll examine a few KQ7 GM files and see if there's a stream of them.  Again, if there are, I didn't place them there -- Sierra did....and again, I don't know why they would

[Alistair]

I disagree. Did Sierra place these controllers in the files? I have the extracted game files, and ones I've recorded, and neither have the controllers I mentioned.

Which leads me to believe the files you have are simply erroneous, or 'buggy'.

I've found very few controller 75's in Sound Canvas-support games. None would be more like it. Quite a lot in old MT-32 games, but KQ7 ain't that.

Both the all note off and controller 75 controllers cut off individual notes (on the SC-55), and are not needed, and indeed aren't supposed to be there!

Incidentally, the controller 75's from your SQ3 GS MIDI's, for example (you left the controllers when you converted, I assume) also stop the MIDI's playing back properly on my SC-55. When doing GS conversions I always have to delete the controllers, myself- I suppose it's helpful to point out that in both KQ7 and the SQ3 MIDI's (for example) there's one set to zero, but one set to one as well.

- Alistair

[Tom]

I disagree. Did Sierra place these controllers in the files? I have the extracted game files, and ones I've recorded, and neither have the controllers I mentioned.

Do you really think I'm making this up?  For what possible reason?  Don't really know how to respond to that except to say, why in the world would I place CC75's in Sierra MIDI files?  

But  you raise a good question...and one I've always want to get feedback on.  Does anyone else share Alistair's SC playback problems with these files?

[Zemus]

I found some controllers in the MIDI-files. 75, 78 and 123. But they don't seem to do anything when I change their values. The MIDI-files play fine here. And, yes, I use a Roland module (CM-500 set to SC-55 mode).

I did a recording myself and KQ7 does transmit those controllers itself.

[Alistair]

I wasn't hinting you placed them, Tom! From what I think I remember you told me, you recieved the files from someone else.

I get standard files when I record from KQ7, when I record the Sierra theme at the start I get the 'usual 4', Data Entry, Controller 101, 100, and 38. Other than pitch bends, patch changes, pedal sustains and mod wheels there's no other controllers/program changes I've encountered at all!

Zemus, how exactly are you recording? And what part of the game from?

- Alistair

[Zemus]

It was recorded from the DOS-version played on a P120 with an SCC-1 as MIDI interface. The SCC-1 is then connected to the MIDI IN of my CM-500, and MIDI-THRU on the module is connected to my new computer.
I recorded halfways through chapter 1. I didn't record any of the intro or logo screens.