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Zemus
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« Reply #20 on: August 31, 2004, 01:12:07 AM »

Neither Wolf3d or Spear of Destiny had General MIDI. They used a format called IMF which is a MIDI-like format for adlib.
The first id game with General MIDI was Doom.
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robertmo
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« Reply #21 on: August 31, 2004, 03:43:27 AM »

seskanda could you explain it? I have checked Bio-Menace and it also doesn't have midi music.
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Laust
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« Reply #22 on: August 31, 2004, 10:46:05 AM »

Well, the game not having MIDI music would explain why recording didn't work Wink

But maybe he meant Adlib recording?
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Alistair
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« Reply #23 on: August 31, 2004, 12:54:45 PM »

I know what IMF is, I'm quite knowledgeable about Apogee music, just never played the game (Been playing Keen lately, amongst various others).

And a friend of mine sent me some General MIDI Wolf stuff, and having never played the game, made a false assumption. I know Duke3D used GM, maybe I transposed the two. Smiley

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Zemus
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« Reply #24 on: August 31, 2004, 01:32:55 PM »

Well, there are MIDI-files from Wolf3d floating around, but they're just converted from the IMF-files.
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MusicallyInspired
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« Reply #25 on: August 31, 2004, 02:50:03 PM »

Here's something I've been wondering for a while. Is it possible to change the output of adlib to midi output with dosbox or vdmsound or anything at all without the drivers in the game? so that games that only support adlib/sound blaster can be transfered to play out of you're mpu-401 instead of adlib? Can you trick it like that since it's all just midi data anyway somehow? Or does it depend on the game actually having a general midi or the like driver?
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HondaSiR
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« Reply #26 on: August 31, 2004, 03:49:23 PM »

That's something to think about MusicallyInspired. I don't think that is possible, the game must have a GM or MPU-401 driver. It's possible to convert adlib files to GM but this requires a special program I think. Within the game, I don't think this is feasible. It may require a great deal of tinkering within the game program itself.
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Alistair
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« Reply #27 on: September 01, 2004, 01:09:57 AM »

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Well, there are MIDI-files from Wolf3d floating around, but they're just converted from the IMF-files.

I don't mean the ones available on the Web, but yes, they're sequenced based upon the IMF original data, yes.

Quote
Here's something I've been wondering for a while. Is it possible to change the output of adlib to midi output with dosbox or vdmsound or anything at all without the drivers in the game? so that games that only support adlib/sound blaster can be transfered to play out of you're mpu-401 instead of adlib? Can you trick it like that since it's all just midi data anyway somehow? Or does it depend on the game actually having a general midi or the like driver?

I don't really understand the question here, MI my man. I presume by 'MPU-401' you mean Roland MT-32 or other MIDI device, as well.
How can you possibly change the game's 'output' by using a program like VDM Sound? Especially since every company game uses a different file format in terms of the older games.
You definitely *cannot* trick it. Adlib MIDI will run on much higher pitches, for example (octaves). Try playing an old game like.. Colonel's Bequest (or really any SCI0[EGA] game) with it set to Adlib, while you have your General MIDI sound card or compatible device as the MIDI output. That should tell you why it wouldn't work.

Honda is also partially correct; you'd either need a driver or to actually change the MIDI data in the game itself. Neither is easy to do. It could be done for those SCI0 Sierra games, but as they have MT-32 support already it would be redundant to say the least. What games do you have in mind, Brandon?

- Alistair
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MusicallyInspired
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« Reply #28 on: September 01, 2004, 02:32:10 AM »

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I don't really understand the question here, MI my man. I presume by 'MPU-401' you mean Roland MT-32 or other MIDI device, as well.

All I mean by MPU-401 is the ability to have the midi information sent to your soundcard's midi output instead of adlib even though the game only has an adlib/soundblaster driver.

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How can you possibly change the game's 'output' by using a program like VDM Sound? Especially since every company game uses a different file format in terms of the older games.

I don't know. I don't know much about it, which is partly why I asked.

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Honda is also partially correct; you'd either need a driver or to actually change the MIDI data in the game itself. Neither is easy to do. It could be done for those SCI0 Sierra games, but as they have MT-32 support already it would be redundant to say the least. What games do you have in mind, Brandon?

I was thinking of games like Goblins 3 and the first few Lemmings games and Bio Menace and Duke Nukem 2 and Commander Keen and all those (basically games that only support adlib/sound blaster and maybe pc speaker for midi music). I suppose you can get programs to extract the midi files from some of those games (mostly the apogee ones probably) and then convert the file format to regular midi format, which I've done before and have a bunch of programs to do that, but specifically for Goblins 3 I haven't figured out any way to play the music other than through adlib. I'd really love to hear the music through general midi and see what it sounds like. Although I haven't tried extracting any files from that...maybe I should try. Anyways, there you have it.
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HondaSiR
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« Reply #29 on: September 01, 2004, 03:12:58 AM »

I can only imagine that if we can somehow direct a theme meant for an adlib card through a GM device...it would most probably sound terrible! The composer intended it to sound good for FM. But for it to sound good in GM, the instruments or sounds must be changed. The patch banks or sound map of GM is not the same as in FM. Some major tweaking by the composer must be done.

On a side note...I remember Duke Nukem 1 to have GM support (or was it Duke 3D? I can't remember much, too long ago it seems). Did they stop supporting GM in part 2? I can't recall if I played the second part.
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MusicallyInspired
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« Reply #30 on: September 01, 2004, 03:55:19 AM »

I realize that the instrument mapping would be very...very different. But if that information went through the MIDI output of a soundcard into the MIDI input of another in a second computer that is set to record MIDI information from it's sound card's MIDI input, then you could deal with the instrument mapping after it's recorded.

And I know DK1 has no music support at all, but DK2 might actually now that I think of it..I'm not sure, but I'm not sure. I do know for a fact Duke3D has GM support, though.
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robertmo
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« Reply #31 on: September 01, 2004, 04:07:23 AM »

Quote from: MusicallyInspired
I suppose you can get programs to extract the midi files from some of those games (mostly the apogee ones probably) and then convert the file format to regular midi format, which I've done before and have a bunch of programs to do that,

What have you done exactly? How have you done it? Which programs have you used?
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MusicallyInspired
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« Reply #32 on: September 01, 2004, 04:19:13 AM »

I did a search a long while ago and found these. Ripper 5 is the most popular and gets the most results. Here you go:

http://smc.sq7.org/miscfile/brandon/file_extractors.zip

You may have to do a search for some converter programs ie- 'RMI2MID.exe' etc etc.
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Alistair
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« Reply #33 on: September 01, 2004, 12:58:27 PM »

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and Bio Menace and Duke Nukem 2 and Commander Keen and all those (basically games that only support adlib/sound blaster and maybe pc speaker for midi music). I suppose you can get programs to extract the midi files from some of those games (mostly the apogee ones probably) and then convert the file format to regular midi format

On that excerpt, Apogee games DO NOT run MIDI. They run a sort of 'compressed wave' file. Or a sort of 'digital MIDI', called IMF. Some games are extractable, I've been trying for ages to get assistance and have had considerable help. (I'm leaving out the detail here.)
It's possible to convert IMF to MIDI, too.
Very hard to convert the MIDI into something for GM. But doable.
But it is certainly NOT possible to put that General MIDI back into the game. (Unless you remade the game in SCI Studio, or something.. yuck.)

Later Gobliins games have digital audio on the CD versions. Buy them. Smiley

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On a side note...I remember Duke Nukem 1 to have GM support (or was it Duke 3D? I can't remember much, too long ago it seems). Did they stop supporting GM in part 2? I can't recall if I played the second part.

Duke 1, PC Speaker, Duke 2, IMF Adlib support (see above), Duke 3D, GM.

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I realize that the instrument mapping would be very...very different. But if that information went through the MIDI output of a soundcard into the MIDI input of another in a second computer that is set to record MIDI information from it's sound card's MIDI input, then you could deal with the instrument mapping after it's recorded

Again, the point is moot, for reasons explained above.

- Alistair
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MusicallyInspired
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« Reply #34 on: September 01, 2004, 01:14:42 PM »

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But it is certainly NOT possible to put that General MIDI back into the game. (Unless you remade the game in SCI Studio, or something.. yuck.)


I wasn't saying that...I merely wanted to listen to them.
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HondaSiR
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« Reply #35 on: September 01, 2004, 02:16:30 PM »

Quote from: Alistair
Duke 1, PC Speaker, Duke 2, IMF Adlib support (see above), Duke 3D, GM.


Ahhh...now I remember. I never played the original Duke Nukems...just the 3D versions. I remember using the cheat codes on the first installment and going through walls and into areas the player wasn't supposed to go. In one area I found a sign saying something like this:  "You are not supposed to be here! Signed: The Design team" or something. Really funny when I first read it. Ah the memories of yesteryear.
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robertmo
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« Reply #36 on: September 01, 2004, 02:21:49 PM »

well.. it is possible to convert FM music to wavetable music in game.
I did so with Syndicate. This game has only fm music, but i have changed music drivers and i was able to play this game with wavetable music on Sound Blaster AWE32 and on Gravis Ultra Sound.
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MusicallyInspired
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« Reply #37 on: September 01, 2004, 08:11:22 PM »

Quote from: robertmo
well.. it is possible to convert FM music to wavetable music in game.
I did so with Syndicate. This game has only fm music, but i have changed music drivers and i was able to play this game with wavetable music on Sound Blaster AWE32 and on Gravis Ultra Sound.


How did you change the music drivers?
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robertmo
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« Reply #38 on: September 02, 2004, 03:55:04 AM »

You just have to download Miles AIL drivers (miles audio libraries) for awe32 or for gus. And just delete the game ones and rename the downloaded ones
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MusicallyInspired
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« Reply #39 on: September 02, 2004, 04:03:23 AM »

Oh well that doesn't help me with an Audigy 2 ZS Smiley.
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